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View Poll Results: Are you aroused by any of these?
I'm aroused by embarrassing aspects (not fitting, breaking things) 296 61.80%
I'm aroused by struggles (being out of breath, sweating) 207 43.22%
I'm aroused by disgusting things (hygiene issues, farting, etc) 53 11.06%
I'm aroused by painful things (not being able to walk far/well, that she's on medications, etc) 64 13.36%
I'm aroused by total immobility. 97 20.25%
I'm aroused by none of the above. 131 27.35%
Other. Explain if you want. 40 8.35%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 479. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-26-2008, 06:28 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by bexylicious View Post
how the HELL did that happen lol!
A fart porn-promoting bot got into a Livejournal community I go to and spammed a hundred posts with a "Fart Queen".
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:58 PM   #52
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This poll reminds me of the question - "Do you still beat your wife?"

There is no right answer.
There is no "wrong" answer either, unless YOU view it as such.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:00 PM   #53
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Ripley this is why I love you and very likely why you have ten-bazillions rep points...You're a thinker. You don't just take things at face value. This is a bold question and I'm glad you put it out there.

Ok, so this is a Size Appreciation/Acceptance site. Does that mean we have to accept and appreciate every aspect of Dims or the fat community in order to be a member? I don't think so. I do not categorize all FAs as being alike in point of view and in their desires just like I would hope they don't categorize BBWs as all being alike. If people who like these things want to be understood then its good to bring them out into the open. Not everyone will like it but perhaps they will be less fearful and/or disgusted by it.

On a personal note, I have to admit this stuff bugs me too and I'm not really sure how I feel about the poll results thus far. It bothers me to think that something I dislike about my weight is something that someone else might find arousing. However, I am withholding my opinion until I see more responses so I can try to understand to the best of my ability.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:09 PM   #54
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On a personal note, I have to admit this stuff bugs me too and I'm not really sure how I feel about the poll results thus far. It bothers me to think that something I dislike about my weight is something that someone else might find arousing. However, I am withholding my opinion until I see more responses so I can try to understand to the best of my ability.
I don't think this is fat specific. There are many people who don't like something about themselves and others find attracted. For example, big noses, small breasts, big feet, etc.

For most people, there will always be something about themselves that they dislike that someone else will want.


I just hope the FAs reading and posting don't feel that they are being judged for liking something deemed "disgusting" etc.

It is interesting to see what some men are attracted to about the "fat" experience.


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Old 06-26-2008, 07:45 PM   #55
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You know, it's funny, normally I would hate to see a poll like this. I'm one of those FAs who sees something that could put the whole issue in a possibly negative light and I usually go off and spend yet more time worrying about how big of a monster I am. BUT, for some reason, I'm actually kind of glad to see it here. First because it quantifies things and it is a poll so not everyone will have to post to be represented and it does get the issue out on the table. Also, it makes me feel a little better to see what things the other FAs are attracted to as well. I do feel the title of the poll was judgmental, but I actually think that's one of the things that needs to be addressed more in this community in general. There is often a disconnect between the way FAs see what attracts them and how BBW and BHM feel about the same issues. I think a lot of FAs are aware of this. I think it's where a lot of the guilt comes from. It's the reason WE use the word monster to describe ourselves more than the BBW/BHM ever would. But I also think a lot of the BBW/BHM don't understand that for a lot of FAs there are differences between fantasy and reality and between reality and what you would actually do in a certain situation especially with someone you care about. As painful as this discussion may end up, hopefully people will be respectful and we may actually get some of our collective demons as a community dealt with. I hope people take it in that light. I think it could help if that is the case.


I couldn't agree more. I think this needs to get out in the open more. Not so us FAs can feel "safe" but so that there can be some more understanding on all sides.



Absolutely. I'm a woman and I can say even I can physically tell the difference between something I find attractive visually and something I find arousing visually. And believe me, some of the stuff I find arousing, I really wish I didn't but there is nothing intellectual about the process when it happens. What I choose to do with that information sent to my brain is what makes the difference to me.



I think wrestlingguy has done a great service to this thread by replying so early with such honesty. Thank you. As we know, the first few posts can make or break a thread. And I also think there's a lot to be learned from WG and edx's responses. These two are, from what I know of them on the boards, two of the undisputed good guys. Kind, thoughtful, gentlemen and sincerely dedicated to BBW causes and concerns, to making better FAs and to size acceptance. So, if these two can admit to having turn ons that fall on this list, maybe the answer isn't that all FAs are creepy or scary. Maybe the answer is that fantasy and arousal shouldn't be considered so frightening. There really is a difference, as both men's stories indicate, in what you think versus what you do about it. They made different choices in different situations and one is attracted more to the emotional struggle while one is not(I think I understood that right WG, my apologies if I didn't) but the point is, both made decisions that ultimately were about their concern for their partner as a person. WG can't change that he found the loss of control sexy, but he NEVER mentioned wanting to manipulate or control her to stay a way she didn't want to be. I can understand people's concern on reading a story like his, but if you take a deep breath and read it carefully, there is actually no cruelty there. He didn't say he turned around and sought out another relationship exactly like it, he admitted he struggled with his attraction and so did she and that ultimately it ended the relationship. There's pain there, but no cruelty. At least that's how I see it. The truth is it happened to her and he was there and he can't change or help what his reaction was to the circumstances. It just is what it is. In my opinion, it doesn't make him a bad person. What would do that was trying to always put someone in that position or ONLY enjoying the struggle and never once thinking about her. I got the impression he was concerned for her(he said he consoled her), he just couldn't change the actual reaction he had. There can be a disconnect between your sexual brain and your human, thinking brain. There really can be. I doubt she mattered less to him as a person all of a sudden. And as for edx, he went against his own arousal and chose in favor of his wife's happiness. Isn't that all you could ever ask for from any partner about anything? That they value your happiness, no matter what may be going through their brain sometimes. It seems unfair to hold everyone's thoughts and fantasies against them if they are actually in reality wonderful partners. It doesn't mean some dark desire is lurking waiting for the moment when the FA can "strike." Our fantasies are our fantasies. Lots of people have fantasies from time to time involving people who aren't their partner, but that doesn't make them adulterers if they still stay monogamous and enjoy their life and sex life with their actual partner. An FA can have desires or fantasies that they would never act on and that they may never want to. I know I have fantasies I would never want to see happen in reality to someone I cared about. Which brings me to this and my actual answer:



For me personally, the line you're describing is my boundary. I may find something exciting as a fantasy, but wouldn't want to see it in reality. Or I may enjoy seeing something in reality if it's there (say a big man getting out of car) but either the arousal ends if I see the look of frustration on his face, or more importantly, I might not want to see someone I cared about and knew reach that state themselves. Does that make sense? It doesn't mean I totally dehumanize the fat man I see randomly in the parking lot, but it does mean I just see him and move on, the way any woman might check out a hot guy and then get on with her day. But if I was with someone who was struggling and frustrated, that would not turn me on. Although, I do not think that makes me a better person than someone who does get turned on by the struggle itself. I'm sure they can't control it. And I only learned my own boundaries from personal experiences. But for me, it's the actual physical movement of a large person doing certain things, it's not the struggle itself (emotionally or in terms of discomfort and things) that I find arousing, it's purely the visual. Also, I find men attractive over at least a 250 pound weight range and that covers everything from smallish BHM to super size and the truth is, I am attracted to different things depending on the man's size. And I do not find one more or less attractive than the other. I would never want, let's say, a 280 pound man to get bigger so that he would waddle for me. In fact, I personally(and this is not judging, I'm just explaining my personal thoughts as an FA) would not be very comfortable in a feeder/feedee/gainer relationship because I don't like the idea of a partner changing to please me even if it is only in the implied way that feederism has. I do find feederism exciting, but my personal comfort level would keep me from entering an honest to God feeder/feedee relationship. It's one thing if a partner gains weight because they like to eat, but the idea of me somehow being part of it doesn't make me comfortable. But I can understand that there are others who feel differently and I don't think for a minute that they are monsters. As long as it is what both partners want then I don't see the problem, as long as they stop once someone doesn't want it any more. Again, boundaries.

But I think in terms of this board, it is good to be able to discuss fantasy without being attacked all the time. I know a lot of people get angry when FAs say things like I'm about to say, but this is not in any way trying to compare anyone's struggles or pain. But the truth is, some of us are dealing with these issues all the time, or went through periods where we had to. We sometimes feel like monsters. This is not the easiest way to feel about yourself. It's not. This is not to say, "poor FAs" and I know there are unrepentant horndogs, but there are sensitive FAs and normal, caring, loving people who are FAs and maybe get turned on when someone gets winded. That doesn't change any of those other aspects of them. They aren't suddenly less loving, or caring, although apparently many would say they are less normal once they admit to their fantasy. I guess I'm just trying to say that an FA can be a good person and someone who would be great to be in a relationship with even if their fantasies or turn ons aren't always exactly what the fat people feel comfortable with. But it doesn't mean we're all secretly getting off on your pain or that if one of us does he/she doesn't feel bad about it. Again, these are the issues that I think are at the heart of a lot of FA guilt even among those who don't like any of the things listed in this poll. Because let's face it with society's negative attitude to fat, there's a certain emotional struggle involved for a lot of fat people just about being fat. Or there was at some point in most fat people's lives. Yet, finding fat people attractive in general isn't seen as monstrous here, so why should some of the things on that list make a person out of hand a monster. And I DO understand being upset by someone who does enjoy the humiliation aspect, but once again, is it something they seek out or something they wish they could change about themselves too? I can't answer for FAs like that, but I would guess if it's someone who wishes they could change it about themselves but can't, well, I'm guessing being in a relationship with that person would feel no different than being in a relationship with me or anyone else who doesn't find that appealing. Many people, male and female are able to make decisions and distinctions about their behavior. Many people would never choose their fantasy over a partner's happiness. I know there are FAs who just care about getting off, but their fantasies are often shared by the FAs who are interested in real relationships too. And I think if everyone is discussing FANTASY it shouldn't suddenly make it seem that even the good guys are monsters because they admit to liking certain things sexually that may seem odd or scary to some. Many of us are very human and pretty decent as people and we're not all ticking time bombs of depraved perversity waiting to undo the fat people who cross our paths. I know that's not what anyone here is trying to say, but to FA ears, that is often what it sounds like. I know, we say things that make the fat people feel less than human too sometimes, so, again, not looking for sympathy, just trying to be honest for the sake of mutual understanding. And since I'm a chick FA and can express my feelings more openly I thought I'd try to explain how it can feel from the other side sometimes. OK, another overly long post and I hope it made sense.
Dr P, thank you for sharing such a powerful post. I'm very glad you wrote it. I think and hope it goes a long way to understanding for many. I'd rep you but I have to spread it around.
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:12 PM   #56
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I don't think this is fat specific. There are many people who don't like something about themselves and others find attracted. For example, big noses, small breasts, big feet, etc.
That's what I was thinking. My girlfriend claims to like that I stutter. I hate it, but having had a girlfriend in the past who seemed to be even more embarrassed of it than I was, I'm not going to complain. Whether she's just being nice or really does find it attractive, it's certainly better than her disliking something about me that I can't change.

But, that seems different than the issue of "negative, painful, or disgusting" aspects. I'm glad she likes my stutter. But, if she was aroused by watching me struggle to make a phone call, I don't know how I'd feel about that.

I think it's the same thing here, with fat. It seems like it's one thing to be attracted to a fat person, and another to be attracted/aroused by things that happen because they are fat, that might be embarrassing or difficult for them. I'm trying to think of what the difference is. If you are attracted to fat, does that mean being aroused by all of the things that go along with being fat? Can you separate the two?

I don't know. I do think that a lot of people are attracted to/aroused by helplessness or struggle. I don't know why, but it seems pretty common. I definitely feel that way at times, and not just or even primarily around fat. A guy who was really into skinny women might find it very arousing if she didn't have the physical strength to do something. I can see why that might not be a positive thing, but I also don't think it's horrible, either. I'm not sure if it's really any different.
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Old 06-27-2008, 01:35 AM   #57
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Anonymous, multiple-choice poll (if I don't screw it up).

I got this idea from some posts in the "Fantasy to Concern" thread. You're free to discuss it here if you want to.
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Old 06-27-2008, 05:48 AM   #58
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<snipped>

People keep saying how negative this thread could be. To me, even though I'm sorta in the hot seat, it hasn't been. I'm learning a lot (kudos to the brave guys who stepped up). I thought (pretty naively, I can see now) that putting it here would avoid the drama and arguing, because of the rules of this subforum.


I'm surprised at how virulent the responses to my word choices were. I knew they wouldn't be popular, but I didn't find them that egregious.

You know, I'm lazy as hell. I do think it's a negative (I could get a lot more done if I wasn't!) but you know what? I also like it when my laziness turns a guy on. It's a win-win situation for me. The out-of-breath and sweating part...well, climbing stairs or walking a long way, I'm going to be out of breath and sweating, he might as well like it, lol.



Threads around here often lose sight of the original point and instead devolve into nitpicking method, or snarking...I really hope we can keep this one on track. Instead of talking about how negative it could be, maybe we could just each try to make sure it doesn't become negative?
I'm kinda sorta glad you started this thread Rip. I'm on the list of people who are a little salty about your choice of words, otherwise I think this has been a good discussion so far.

I was out with a friend of mine and he wasn't watching where he was going. He walked right on to a pile of trash on the curb and sprawled out right on top of it. I busted out laughing. It was so funny I just couldn't help it. I was still chuckling when I went over, extended my hand and asked him if he was alright. He was embarassed and pissed that I was laughing at him. I've fallen in public places and even been injured. People laughed and most didn't even bother to help me or check to see if I was okay. I've watched out the window as a guy fell and did the same.

I don't know why somebody falling down is funny. Situation comedians have milked that schtick for years. For some reason falling down is funny even though it's embarassing and people get hurt. I'm sorta relating this discussion to the same thing. My friend fell, my gut reaction was to laugh and he didn't like it. Surely I didn't mean him any harm, I didn't wish for him to fall, I didn't push him, it would never have occured to me to do so and his falling didn't diminish him in my eyes at all. Stuff like that just happens and no one has any control over it. I'm not out divising ways so I can get my jollies either. It was an occurance and I reacted to it. I probably should learn to better control my outbursts but that's not going to make it less funny. It becomes instantly un-funny when he's been injured.
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:25 AM   #59
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Ripley this is why I love you and very likely why you have ten-bazillions rep points...You're a thinker. You don't just take things at face value. This is a bold question and I'm glad you put it out there.
Ditto. I am glad to see this poll.

I struggle a bit with the concept of feeding to the point of immobilization and possible health problems, because I question if the feedee is in a healthy mental state while making that choice. I'm not saying that I'm right. I'm saying that I don't know, and that I'd like to understand, and that I do realize that this is an unsubstantiated assumption on my part.

I have similar curiosity about feeders who fantasize about immobility and other, often painful or - depending on how the person involved views her situation - humiliating. I would like to understand. I'm not sure that I'm capable of it, but I do want to try. I am glad that wrestlingguy and others have felt comfortable enough to share their feelings and personal experiences, and I hope to see many others.

On a personal level, the subject of immobility is a painful one for me. It is one of my greatest fears -- becoming helpless to some extent, and having to rely on others to care for me. When I was at my highest weight, I spent nearly every waking day thinking about how to creatively accommodate my rapidly encroaching problems with moving around and accomplishing daily tasks that required physical exertion. When I lost the weight, I spent several years taking a lot of joy in things that many other people just take for granted -- like, walking without pain, or running, or climbing a set of stairs without feeling like I had wet sandbags exploding into my lungs. Now, as I age, and with the onset of non-weight related joint problems, I am again starting to feel the vague stirrings of encroaching limits to what I can do. It frightens me, badly, and for that reason alone ... I acknowledge that it can be very, very difficult for me to hear that people fantasize about immobility, and other issues that are/were unpleasant for me. But I also know that this is *my* problem, and to the extent that I am capable of it, I would like to try to understand other people's viewpoints.
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:47 AM   #60
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I'm aware that you dislike me, and that's okay.
No need to play victim.

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As to the reason I asked...a great part of it was curiosity. Another part is that I get approached by a lot of FAs, and I'd like to understand them better.
My concern is your obvious distrust or fear of men that comes out in many of your posts. To then go and ask leading questions in a poll simply seems to serve to solidify your already formed opinion that men, and especially FAs, are demented folks with evil fantasies and thus to be avoided just emphasizes that.

In general:

Fantasies and reality are totally different. You cannot conclude from fantasies what a person is in real-life (i.e. the non-sexual situations that take up most of our time). The old "my fantasies are okay, but yours are not" approach is inappropriate. Moralizing over other people's fantasies is inappropriate.

A much more productive approach would be to marvel at the wonderful fact that nature has made it so that there are both fat people, and those who seek and desire them. Play it right, and it is a match made in heaven.

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Old 06-27-2008, 07:05 AM   #61
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My concern is your obvious distrust or fear of men that comes out in many of your posts. To then go and ask leading questions in a poll simply seems to serve to solidify your already formed opinion that men, and especially FAs, are demented folks with evil fantasies and thus to be avoided just emphasizes that.
This is unfair. You don't know Ripley, and you can't possibly know what (if any) issues she may have with men. I like Ripley, and I enjoy reading what she has to say, so I follow many of the threads that she contributes to. I don't see "fear" or "distrust" of men. I see a woman who simply doesn't wish to be objectified. What is "obvious" to you is far from being an objective reality.

I know that Ripley hardly needs me to defend her, and it isn't my primary intent to do so, anyway. I am generally appalled that you'd make such a callous observation about someone that you don't know. You're Webmaster. Conrad. People don't generally seem to like to challenge you.

Quote:
In general:

Fantasies and reality are totally different. You cannot conclude from fantasies that a person is in real-life (i.e. the non-sexual situations that take up most of our time). The old "my fantasies are okay, but yours are not" approach is inappropriate. Moralizing over other people's fantasies is inappropriate.

A much more productive approach would be to marvel at the wonderful fact that nature has made it so that there are both fat people, and those who seek and desire them. Play it right, and it is a match made in heaven.
I think we all get that. Fantasies are harmless, check. We can't even control [most] of the fantastic imagery that pops into our heads, check. What I've seen in various threads is discussion of the appropriateness of *acting* on various impulses. Perhaps some moralizing has taken place on the notion of even *having* the fantasies, but I haven't seen that behavior here, and particularly not from Ripley. She's gone out of her way to explain that she's trying to understand.

As an aside, if I haven't made it clear already, I do acknowledge that fantasies are a far cry from reality. And we act out our fantasies in many ways, on many different levels. Most of us would draw the line long before genuinely harming the people we care about. I get that. I really do.
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:12 AM   #62
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No need to play victim.



My concern is your obvious distrust or fear of men that comes out in many of your posts. To then go and ask leading questions in a poll simply seems to serve to solidify your already formed opinion that men, and especially FAs, are demented folks with evil fantasies and thus to be avoided just emphasizes that.

In general:

Fantasies and reality are totally different. You cannot conclude from fantasies that a person is in real-life (i.e. the non-sexual situations that take up most of our time). The old "my fantasies are okay, but yours are not" approach is inappropriate. Moralizing over other people's fantasies is inappropriate.

A much more productive approach would be to marvel at the wonderful fact that nature has made it so that there are both fat people, and those who seek and desire them. Play it right, and it is a match made in heaven.
Conrad I agree with you. Speaking only for myself though I have been rethinking the gut reaction to debase people for being ignorant. After all, this is supposed to be a place where people can come together and learn about each other. There are some who are unwilling to do that at all and then there are others willing to put themselves out there and ask the stupid questions and blurt out the rediculous notions. I just don't feel it serves any of us to get angry, especially when one is willing to sit at the table and listen - even at the risk of being assaulted with claims of offense. I think there have been fair demonstrations of people willing to take that risk demonstrated from both sides. I'd love to see what happens if we can honor that and let things play themselves out anger free.
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:12 AM   #63
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I don't think this is fat specific. There are many people who don't like something about themselves and others find attracted. For example, big noses, small breasts, big feet, etc.

For most people, there will always be something about themselves that they dislike that someone else will want.
I guess I should say that a man finding my fat attractive is not bothersome to me. Sometimes its hard for me to accept those feelings because I don't feel them myself but that is my issue, not theirs. I also happen to dislike my nose but have been complimented on it numerous times. I appreciate that someone might find it attractive even if I don't. That is not my issue here. My issue is that some men find certain things a sexual turn on that are not just part of the athstetics of being fat. They are a huge part of the struggle of being fat. Being attracted to someone who has dwarfism is one thing. Getting turned on by their struggle to climb steps or see over a counter would be just as distasteful to me as someone finding my struggle to breathe or move distasteful. Clearly there is a fine line between finding something attractive and taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. Perhaps this touches on the S&M side of things in which case then this becomes a whole new topic.

I'm not trying to pass judgment on other people's tastes and turn-ons. I'm just speaking for myself and I know that if I had a guy who said that he got a thrill every time I huffed and puffed my way up some stairs I would be hurt and slightly pissed. Very likely the next time he struggled with his hair loss or his inability to get it up as quickly as he used to I'd be a right 'ol bitch and say, "Ohh baby, your flaccid penis/receeding hairline turn me on!"
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:33 AM   #64
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Clearly there is a fine line between finding something attractive and taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. Perhaps this touches on the S&M side of things in which case then this becomes a whole new topic.
I think a very small number of FAs that find more than aethistics of fat are real sadists. I'd say maybe 1 out of 10,000. S&M is a whole other ball game. I think it's naive of BBWs and BHMs to think that all FAs are only attracted to the actual body of the person. I think it was Dunwin that mentioned he was fascinated with the physics of it and I'm sure that he's not alone.

Also..what seems like a misfortune to one, may not be to another and I would garner a wager that the men don't WANT to feel attracted to someone else's misfortune if they indeed see it that way


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I'm not trying to pass judgment on other people's tastes and turn-ons. I'm just speaking for myself and I know that if I had a guy who said that he got a thrill every time I huffed and puffed my way up some stairs I would be hurt and slightly pissed. Very likely the next time he struggled with his hair loss or his inability to get it up as quickly as he used to I'd be a right 'ol bitch and say, "Ohh baby, your flaccid penis/receeding hairline turn me on!"
That would be completely unfair to the man that your with. Our weight is our responsibility. We get to choose what we eat and when we exercise etc. A man has no say in the biological conditions such as a receeding hairling or ED. It would, therefore, be unfair to make such a comparision.

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Old 06-27-2008, 07:40 AM   #65
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Wow you actually reckon there are that many FA's around?? lol cause I keep bumping into the same few! hehe
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:41 AM   #66
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That would be completely unfair to the man that your with. Our weight is our responsibility. We get to choose what we eat and when we exercise etc. A man has no say in the biological conditions such as a receeding hairling or ED. It would, therefore, be unfair to make such a comparision.
First, I'm not so sure that I agree with a blanket statement about our weight being our responsibility. There are many possible medical and/or psychological conditions that could determine weight, and whether we gain or lose.

But I think it's beside the point, anyway. Even if my weight is 100% my responsibility, I get to choose what I am and am not comfortable with. Like Nancy, I wouldn't be at all OK with my husband being turned on by conditions that are painful for me. I wouldn't be able to control my discomfort any more than he would be able to control his excitement (if that turned him on). To that end, I thought that Nancy's comparison was an apt one. She wasn't suggesting that either condition would be his fault. She was relating the two in terms of emotional discomfort.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:02 AM   #67
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No need to play victim.



My concern is your obvious distrust or fear of men that comes out in many of your posts. To then go and ask leading questions in a poll simply seems to serve to solidify your already formed opinion that men, and especially FAs, are demented folks with evil fantasies and thus to be avoided just emphasizes that.

In general:

Fantasies and reality are totally different. You cannot conclude from fantasies that a person is in real-life (i.e. the non-sexual situations that take up most of our time). The old "my fantasies are okay, but yours are not" approach is inappropriate. Moralizing over other people's fantasies is inappropriate.

A much more productive approach would be to marvel at the wonderful fact that nature has made it so that there are both fat people, and those who seek and desire them. Play it right, and it is a match made in heaven.
I cannot stress enough how much I agree with this. Being moral police over something like this hits my hot button pretty quickly. Would I fart all over my partner if that's what they wanted? No, probably not. Would I look down on someone because that's what they want? No, but I probably wouldn't sleep with them.

I do see this almost thought-police-like mentality emerge on the weight board sometimes and even on the posts I find creepy (short of one or two last year), I do feel that it's their personal choice. Even if they're not just fantasizing, if they find a consenting adult who enjoys the same activities, what they do in their time is their business and I would never judge them for that.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:15 AM   #68
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It seems to me that knowing about these sort of fantasies and being able to talk about these sort of fantasies is important for both fat people and FAs. If I'm in a relationship with someone, I care about them and I want to make them happy and I want to do what I can to explore their fantasies. It looks to me like a lot of these fantasies are open to some perfectly harmless play. Out of breath from exertion is easy to play up and even actual exertion isn't really a big deal. Tight fitting clothes are easy to arrange, even if it's just a matter of bringing out clothes that you knew would never fit (possible at any size), "oh these pants fit perfectly yesterday, but I had such a big breakfast, now I can't button them! And this shirt! Did it shrink? It's soo small and tight!" You can say how humiliating something is without it being, in that circumstance, humiliating. You wanna see me struggle with the car? I'll move the seat up and lower the steering wheel and give you a show. I can always move it all back when I really need to go somewhere. Throw the mattress halfway off the bed, lie down on the part on the floor and then, "honey! I broke the bed! Oh no, and I'm stuck here on the floor and I need help!" Make up a story about breaking a chair in a restaurant at lunch. Go travel trailer shopping and wedge yourself in the narrow doors and tiny bathrooms for effect. Make a game of it. It doesn't have to all be real, you can pretend to have eaten so much that you just can't get off the couch, without really becoming immobile. None of these things has to be negative in the right context, these fantasies seem pretty easy to exaggerate and pretend without being harmful at all.

If my SO had fantasies about sex with a dead person, the solution wouldn't be for me to be dead every time we had sex or for the two of us to break into mortuaries. The solution would be for me to lie there and play dead sometimes, and assuming that I care about my SO and I want her to be happy, laying there and playing dead sometimes really isn't that big of a deal.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:29 AM   #69
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Misty, I had this great, long, well thought out response...and then I accidentally deleted it! Because I can't be bothered rewriting it all I'm keeping this one short and to the point.

I know some people choose to be fat and that is fine. I also know that what I choose to eat contributes to my size. However, even if I dieted every day for the rest of my life I'd never be thin. I was simply not meant to be. That being said, I never once chose to have knees that hardly support me while walking up stairs. I never chose to have nearly constant lower back pain or sore, bloated feet. I certainly never chose to have high blood pressure that struggles to be maintained and may very well be shortening my life span. I never chose to have these fat related issues and if someone took pleasure in them...well, yeah it would bother me because they upset me greatly and deeply at times.

I have no issue with people liking what they like but if I had a boyfriend who told me he was turned on by the very things he knew I found upsetting about being fat then yes I would be hurt and angry. Turning the tables on him to prove a point might be mean of me but maybe he'll see where I'm coming from. Maybe he'll see that his finding joy in the things that physically and emotionally hurt me is frankly a little mean on his part as well.

This is all just based on my personal feelings. To restate, I have no issue with what other people like and/or desire. If its not for me then I say so. That doesn't mean I think everyone should think and feel as I do. I speak only for myself and my own likes, dislikes, what I'm tolerant of and not so much. If this imaginary boyfriend didn't know me well enough to know my feelings on this topic he would soon find out. Maybe his next girlfriend would be into those things as well and all would be right with the world. My other imaginary boyfriend is smokin' hot and likes me for me. So, I can be kind and wish Imaginary Boyfriend #1 lots luck and happiness. See? I might be a bitch but I'm a nice one.

PS...so much for short and to the point.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:44 AM   #70
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Y
For me personally, the line you're describing is my boundary. I may find something exciting as a fantasy, but wouldn't want to see it in reality. Or I may enjoy seeing something in reality if it's there (say a big man getting out of car) but either the arousal ends if I see the look of frustration on his face, or more importantly, I might not want to see someone I cared about and knew reach that state themselves. Does that make sense? It doesn't mean I totally dehumanize the fat man I see randomly in the parking lot, but it does mean I just see him and move on, the way any woman might check out a hot guy and then get on with her day. But if I was with someone who was struggling and frustrated, that would not turn me on. Although, I do not think that makes me a better person than someone who does get turned on by the struggle itself. I'm sure they can't control it. And I only learned my own boundaries from personal experiences. But for me, it's the actual physical movement of a large person doing certain things, it's not the struggle itself (emotionally or in terms of discomfort and things) that I find arousing, it's purely the visual. Also, I find men attractive over at least a 250 pound weight range and that covers everything from smallish BHM to super size and the truth is, I am attracted to different things depending on the man's size. And I do not find one more or less attractive than the other. I would never want, let's say, a 280 pound man to get bigger so that he would waddle for me. In fact, I personally(and this is not judging, I'm just explaining my personal thoughts as an FA) would not be very comfortable in a feeder/feedee/gainer relationship because I don't like the idea of a partner changing to please me even if it is only in the implied way that feederism has. I do find feederism exciting, but my personal comfort level would keep me from entering an honest to God feeder/feedee relationship. It's one thing if a partner gains weight because they like to eat, but the idea of me somehow being part of it doesn't make me comfortable. But I can understand that there are others who feel differently and I don't think for a minute that they are monsters. As long as it is what both partners want then I don't see the problem, as long as they stop once someone doesn't want it any more. Again, boundaries.

But I think in terms of this board, it is good to be able to discuss fantasy without being attacked all the time. I know a lot of people get angry when FAs say things like I'm about to say, but this is not in any way trying to compare anyone's struggles or pain. But the truth is, some of us are dealing with these issues all the time, or went through periods where we had to. We sometimes feel like monsters. This is not the easiest way to feel about yourself. It's not. This is not to say, "poor FAs" and I know there are unrepentant horndogs, but there are sensitive FAs and normal, caring, loving people who are FAs and maybe get turned on when someone gets winded. That doesn't change any of those other aspects of them. They aren't suddenly less loving, or caring, although apparently many would say they are less normal once they admit to their fantasy. I guess I'm just trying to say that an FA can be a good person and someone who would be great to be in a relationship with even if their fantasies or turn ons aren't always exactly what the fat people feel comfortable with. But it doesn't mean we're all secretly getting off on your pain or that if one of us does he/she doesn't feel bad about it. Again, these are the issues that I think are at the heart of a lot of FA guilt even among those who don't like any of the things listed in this poll. Because let's face it with society's negative attitude to fat, there's a certain emotional struggle involved for a lot of fat people just about being fat. Or there was at some point in most fat people's lives. Yet, finding fat people attractive in general isn't seen as monstrous here, so why should some of the things on that list make a person out of hand a monster. And I DO understand being upset by someone who does enjoy the humiliation aspect, but once again, is it something they seek out or something they wish they could change about themselves too? I can't answer for FAs like that, but I would guess if it's someone who wishes they could change it about themselves but can't, well, I'm guessing being in a relationship with that person would feel no different than being in a relationship with me or anyone else who doesn't find that appealing. Many people, male and female are able to make decisions and distinctions about their behavior. Many people would never choose their fantasy over a partner's happiness. I know there are FAs who just care about getting off, but their fantasies are often shared by the FAs who are interested in real relationships too. And I think if everyone is discussing FANTASY it shouldn't suddenly make it seem that even the good guys are monsters because they admit to liking certain things sexually that may seem odd or scary to some. Many of us are very human and pretty decent as people and we're not all ticking time bombs of depraved perversity waiting to undo the fat people who cross our paths. I know that's not what anyone here is trying to say, but to FA ears, that is often what it sounds like. I know, we say things that make the fat people feel less than human too sometimes, so, again, not looking for sympathy, just trying to be honest for the sake of mutual understanding. And since I'm a chick FA and can express my feelings more openly I thought I'd try to explain how it can feel from the other side sometimes. OK, another overly long post and I hope it made sense.
Amen sista.

Seriously I could not have said it better myself. There are and have been many times I have seriously thought that I am some kind of monster/freak because of the things that turn me on. However, anytime there is an indication of discomfort, the thing that was a turn on for me quickly gets shut off. Not saying if the same situation occurred again, without any indication of discomfort it would not be a turn on again.

Mutual understanding is definitely something that can be created through a thread like this, if used properly.
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:50 AM   #71
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Even if they're not just fantasizing, if they find a consenting adult who enjoys the same activities, what they do in their time is their business and I would never judge them for that.
Are we going to just pretend that there aren't vulnerable adults who are able to meaningfully function in society, but are incapable of a rational degree of informed consent? That there aren't women who fall prey to sadistic men with feeder impulses? There are degrees of consent, Tooz. A reasonably emotionally healthy woman could fall victim to what is at first a subtle form of manipulation and then, over time, evolves into outright sadistic abuse. At what point does she stop being a consenting adult? I guess that's what I'm interested in. It is, after all, my profession (working with vulnerable adults).

In the course of my career, I have worked with two young(ish) individuals who were ultimately placed in long-term care facilities because they were completely incapacitated by their weight and unable to care for themselves. They had no family members or friends who could step up and provide the level of care that they needed. I have no idea if they were involved in feeding relationships prior to the point at which they became my clients (in fact, would assume not), but I do know that they stopped being able to meaningfully consent to anything a long time before the crisis point that brought them to the attention of medical professionals, and then later assigned to my caseload. For the sake of conjecture, because we *do* know that such a scenario exists, let's say that one of them had been involved in a feeder/feedee relationship. She gave her consent. She loved to eat. She wanted to please her lover, and she felt in complete control of her sexuality and of the relationship. But no matter how much she gained, it was never enough for her man. At some point, her self-esteem began to erode. What was once fun and completely consensual became painful and damaging to her physical/emotional well-being. Ultimately, as her degree of incapacity grew into complete dependence on her lover, he became disinterested in providing her with the level of care that she needed, and moved on. At the age of 50, she became a permanent resident in a nursing home.

For me, the issue of "informed consent" is far more important than the term "consenting adult." In a situation where vulnerability exists (whether that be social, economic, or emotional), I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "consenting".

I am not pointing to any specific event or incident, nor am I relating these comments directly to anything that anyone has said. I am just wondering at the "let's not judge the behavior of consenting adults" when nothing has ever been said about the definition of "consenting".

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Old 06-27-2008, 09:02 AM   #72
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I'm not going to say much, other than after being online for a few years..nothing surprises me anymore. I think that we all kind of feel the same way about this: if it works for you, and for your partner, then fabulous.

I also don't see how it can hurt to explore these issues and try to get to the root of things, either. I mean, seriously..how many threads are there on whether or not fat is a fetish..or how FA's really feel, or why they like big girls/guys and all that jazz?? This is just taking it one step further. I think that opening these things up for discussion is a good way to understand, and learn to not judge people for having feelings/attractions/fetishes that they have.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:37 AM   #73
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Are we going to just pretend that there aren't vulnerable adults who are able to meaningfully function in society, but are incapable of a rational degree of informed consent? That there aren't women who fall prey to sadistic men with feeder impulses? There are degrees of consent, Tooz. A reasonably emotionally healthy woman could fall victim to what is at first a subtle form of manipulation and then, over time, evolves into outright sadistic abuse. At what point does she stop being a consenting adult? I guess that's what I'm interested in. It is, after all, my profession (working with vulnerable adults).

In the course of my career, I have worked with two young(ish) individuals who were ultimately placed in long-term care facilities because they were completely incapacitated by their weight and unable to care for themselves. They had no family members or friends who could step up and provide the level of care that they needed. I have no idea if they were involved in feeding relationships prior to the point at which they became my clients (in fact, would assume not), but I do know that they stopped being able to meaningfully consent to anything a long time before the crisis point that brought them to the attention of medical professionals, and then later assigned to my caseload. For the sake of conjecture, because we *do* know that such a scenario exists, let's say that one of them had been involved in a feeder/feedee relationship. She gave her consent. She loved to eat. She wanted to please her lover, and she felt in complete control of her sexuality and of the relationship. But no matter how much she gained, it was never enough for her man. At some point, her self-esteem began to erode. What was once fun and completely consensual became painful and damaging to her physical/emotional well-being. Ultimately, as her degree of incapacity grew into complete dependence on her lover, he became disinterested in providing her with the level of care that she needed, and moved on. At the age of 50, she became a permanent resident in a nursing home.

For me, the issue of "informed consent" is far more important than the term "consenting adult." In a situation where vulnerability exists (whether that be social, economic, or emotional), I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "consenting".

I am not pointing to any specific event or incident, nor am I relating these comments directly to anything that anyone has said. I am just wondering at the "let's not judge the behavior of consenting adults" when nothing has ever been said about the definition of "consenting".
Traci, I had all sorts of thoughts swirling around in my head after I read this post. The first thing that came to mind, is here is a woman who says she wants to understand, yet here is this post that doesn't seem to support that statement.

My next thought was caveat emptor. Buyer beware. It becomes incumbent upon the adults involved to think these things thru and talk them out. Sure saying a thing and doing a thing are two different things, but really, personal responsibility is just that. No one else is responsible for anybody who can be responsible for themselves. If someone clearly demonstrates an inability to be responsible, say a child or a mentally handicapped person, then okay that's different. But what what I read into what you are saying is that you assume when you say there is a difference between informed consent and just consent - in your example - is that the gainer/fat woman is incapable of being responsible for her own well being, or that she is the perennial victim by virture of being a woman and fat, or because she wants to please her partner - and that the feeder is the perennial abuser because he is a man - this line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable, and I just don't see how that reasoning is helpful.

I can also see the counter-argument to what I've just said: "but in a loving relationship...," or "a rational person wouldn't..." So what. The abuser has power as long as the person being abused gives him/her that power. In a relationship both parties have the responsibility to communicate what they're feeling. If the gainer hits a point where she is regretful or wants to stop it's up to her to take the initiative to either make changes within the relationship or to try to leave - even if it's to a point where she needs to be placed in a nursing home. Sure the gainer had a role in that, but ultimately it's on her. It also makes me uncomfortable to assume that a person who wants to be that incapacitated is somehow being irrational. That doesn't matter. If it's her body and mind then it's her choice to make. It's the same reasoning process that goes into any sort of thoughts about policing women's bodies in any way.

I take this stance from growing up with an abusive father and wondering all the time why my mother didn't just tell him to go fuck himself and get the hell out. If it were me I wouldn't have put up with it. My sisters and I tried to convince her to leave for years - to no avail. Then one day something clicked and she kicked him out - 30 years later. She took personal responsibility finally for her role in that situation. As complicated as this issue is, I still maintain the abused adult has the ability to walk away whether she knows it or not.

If you really want to understand this feeding to the point of incapacity business you really won't be able to if you assume that there is no such thing as informed consent. I know that if I am going to engage in play that is potentially dangerous and I can't forsee all the possible outcomes, I either gather as much information about it as I can or I don't do it. I would never say to the other person - "You a-hole, how could you be so callous? It's your fault this bad thing happened to me."

I'm really not trying to be contentious, but honestly, this is how I've interpreted your post, and it just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Last edited by olwen; 06-27-2008 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:42 AM   #74
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Are we going to just pretend that there aren't vulnerable adults who are able to meaningfully function in society, but are incapable of a rational degree of informed consent? That there aren't women who fall prey to sadistic men with feeder impulses? There are degrees of consent, Tooz. A reasonably emotionally healthy woman could fall victim to what is at first a subtle form of manipulation and then, over time, evolves into outright sadistic abuse. At what point does she stop being a consenting adult? I guess that's what I'm interested in. It is, after all, my profession (working with vulnerable adults).

In the course of my career, I have worked with two young(ish) individuals who were ultimately placed in long-term care facilities because they were completely incapacitated by their weight and unable to care for themselves. They had no family members or friends who could step up and provide the level of care that they needed. I have no idea if they were involved in feeding relationships prior to the point at which they became my clients (in fact, would assume not), but I do know that they stopped being able to meaningfully consent to anything a long time before the crisis point that brought them to the attention of medical professionals, and then later assigned to my caseload. For the sake of conjecture, because we *do* know that such a scenario exists, let's say that one of them had been involved in a feeder/feedee relationship. She gave her consent. She loved to eat. She wanted to please her lover, and she felt in complete control of her sexuality and of the relationship. But no matter how much she gained, it was never enough for her man. At some point, her self-esteem began to erode. What was once fun and completely consensual became painful and damaging to her physical/emotional well-being. Ultimately, as her degree of incapacity grew into complete dependence on her lover, he became disinterested in providing her with the level of care that she needed, and moved on. At the age of 50, she became a permanent resident in a nursing home.

For me, the issue of "informed consent" is far more important than the term "consenting adult." In a situation where vulnerability exists (whether that be social, economic, or emotional), I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "consenting".

I am not pointing to any specific event or incident, nor am I relating these comments directly to anything that anyone has said. I am just wondering at the "let's not judge the behavior of consenting adults" when nothing has ever been said about the definition of "consenting".
I understand that this is a legitimate concern but is this alarmist fear truly necessary at all times? Abuse is real. It happens. Not to be cruel but I still don't see why anyone should view it as relevant to a discussion about their own desires. If I like a good scotch why must a tale of a piss drunk alcoholic be introduced? I'm not belittling it, we know these things happen and they're terrible but the klaxon worry just seems out of proportion to me.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:48 AM   #75
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Are we going to just pretend that there aren't vulnerable adults who are able to meaningfully function in society, but are incapable of a rational degree of informed consent? That there aren't women who fall prey to sadistic men with feeder impulses? There are degrees of consent, Tooz. A reasonably emotionally healthy woman could fall victim to what is at first a subtle form of manipulation and then, over time, evolves into outright sadistic abuse. At what point does she stop being a consenting adult? I guess that's what I'm interested in. It is, after all, my profession (working with vulnerable adults).
Realistically-- if you can't see when it is becoming abuse (or that you feel it is becoming abuse) and walk away when it gets to that point, the problem is bigger than sexual acts/abuse within the relationship.

I stand by that even having had similar things happen to me in my past. I acknowledged I was a big part of the problem.
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