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Old 02-23-2009, 12:23 PM   #1
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Default Banning people for sticking up for our rights?!

I have only experienced two people being banned (i know there will have been more but i am not aware of who or why) and both times it has been because they have been sticking up for the rights of gay people and because they got angry and had it out with homophobes. I dont get this. Especially as both times the actual people who started with the homophobic speach were NOT actually banned. I really dont get this!? I know this is not hyde park and i dont actually want to discuss the actual matter of the bannings but i just wanted to adress that 1.i understand why people get angry at ignorant homophobes. 2.I have no idea why the ignorant homophobes are allowed to continue to spew their hate speach. 3.I want to thank peeps like lala and shooshie for getting pissed off because they are trying to protect our rights.
Please feel free to send this to hyde park/delete it or delete me.
xmer
p.s i really hope lala comes back soon cause i think she is amazing.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:01 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mergirl View Post
I have only experienced two people being banned (i know there will have been more but i am not aware of who or why) and both times it has been because they have been sticking up for the rights of gay people and because they got angry and had it out with homophobes. I dont get this. Especially as both times the actual people who started with the homophobic speach were NOT actually banned. I really dont get this!? I know this is not hyde park and i dont actually want to discuss the actual matter of the bannings but i just wanted to adress that 1.i understand why people get angry at ignorant homophobes. 2.I have no idea why the ignorant homophobes are allowed to continue to spew their hate speach. 3.I want to thank peeps like lala and shooshie for getting pissed off because they are trying to protect our rights.
Please feel free to send this to hyde park/delete it or delete me.
xmer
p.s i really hope lala comes back soon cause i think she is amazing.

I am not the moderator of this forum, however I am a long time moderator here and I can assure you that no one has ever been "banned" from Dimensions because they were defending gay rights. Conrad nor any of the other moderators here would ever allow someone to be banned for that reason.

There are many things that go on behind the scenes (where moderating is concerned) that the general posters are not privy to. So making assumptions about why someone was banned or given a time out is really counter productive here.

People are given time outs occasionally. It is usually because of repeated (and I do mean repeated as in many, many, many) offenses or rules violations. Never has someone been given a "time out" based on merely one offense.

So please Mer, don't dramatize this into being something that it is not.

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Old 02-23-2009, 04:42 PM   #3
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you know, i'm not known for being a drama queen. I just find it strange that on both occassions the banned individuals were involved in arguments against homophibic remarks prior to their 'time outs'.
On one occassion, someone who went utterly beyond what was reasonable in what he said against gay people was allowed to stay....i dont get that. Call it dramarama or whatever.. I just dont think people should be allowed to call gay people all kinds of shit under the sun thats all. Sure, i dont know what y'all puppet masters do behind the scenes, nor the extent of defence against bigotry that got individuals banned..i just know what i see and i can Totally understand why people get pushed to being so angry.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mergirl View Post
you know, i'm not known for being a drama queen. I just find it strange that on both occassions the banned individuals were involved in arguments against homophibic remarks prior to their 'time outs'.
On one occassion, someone who went utterly beyond what was reasonable in what he said against gay people was allowed to stay....i dont get that. Call it dramarama or whatever.. I just dont think people should be allowed to call gay people all kinds of shit under the sun thats all. Sure, i dont know what y'all puppet masters do behind the scenes, nor the extent of defence against bigotry that got individuals banned..i just know what i see and i can Totally understand why people get pushed to being so angry.

As I clearly said - you DO NOT have all the facts. Feel free to make all the assumptions you would like. However it does not make your assumptions correct, nor does it benefit the situation at hand.

Calling the mods and Conrad "puppetmasters" in a forum you didn't even have (to post in) a month ago, isn't exactly winning you any support either. But please, feel free to go ahead and continue to dig yourself in deeper.


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Old 02-23-2009, 05:36 PM   #5
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deeper into what?
Obviously the 'puppet master' comment was a joke about how you are all 'in the know' and we all know and do nothing!
I'm sure the truth will come out eventually though.
ok, if there was not a gay forum i'm sure i would have posted in hyde park. i dont really get what your saying about posting in a place that didnt exist a month ago.. that i should be grateful, just shut up and not question things i find to be unjust because us queers now have a place to post??
Thank you for allowing me to make assumptions. I assume that i am correct in thinking gay bashers can get away with saying lots of deeply offensive things, without ban. This is something i KNOW for sure!! FOR SURE!!! i have seen it! it has effected me! Made me sad! .......now TWICE in posts that people have said disgusting things about gay people..the people who have retaliated have been banned.. I dont know the full story but the half story is bad enough dont you think??
Or maby now we have our 'gay' board its ok for people to say queerbashing things on other threads???
hmmm..aye. pish.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:59 PM   #6
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No specific comment about why LaLa was banned, because I don't know.

I would like to comment on what you said to Mergirl though, Sandie ... because I view it as very threatening. She's questioning something that she's seen with her very eyes. She's not stating anything as *fact* -- she has been very careful to say that this is her interpretation. She's clearly upset. She feels that people have been banned for speaking out against homophobes. Perhaps that part of her post could have been compassionately addressed (without going into specifics) and she could have just been reassured that this wasn't the case at all ... without her also being threatened or her feelings minimized (i.e., she's creating drama).

Your response to Mergirl doesn't give me much hope that genuine differences of opinion will be treated respectfully by all moderators.

Last edited by TraciJo67; 02-23-2009 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by TraciJo67 View Post
No specific comment about why LaLa was banned, because I don't know.

I would like to comment on what you said to Mergirl though, Sandie ... because I view it as very threatening. She's questioning something that she's seen with her very eyes. She's not stating anything as *fact* -- she has been very careful to say that this is her interpretation. She's clearly upset. She feels that people have been banned for speaking out against homophobes. Perhaps that part of her post could have been compassionately addressed (without going into specifics) and she could have just been reassured that this wasn't the case at all ... without her also being threatened or her feelings minimized (i.e., she's creating drama).

Your response to Mergirl doesn't give me much hope that genuine differences of opinion will be treated respectfully by all moderators.
Thank you. Your post was a reasuring cuddle while i snottered on your jumper!
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:16 PM   #8
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Also, a point just made by someone who pm'ed me. These hate speakers can spew their hate in a generic way; So that technically, they are not breaking any hyde park rules. Then of course people have no other option but to personally attack. I'll tell you that homophobic abuse doesnt seem quite so generic when you have been subjected to it. It becomes personal.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TraciJo67 View Post
No specific comment about why LaLa was banned, because I don't know.

I would like to comment on what you said to Mergirl though, Sandie ... because I view it as very threatening. She's questioning something that she's seen with her very eyes. She's not stating anything as *fact* -- she has been very careful to say that this is her interpretation. She's clearly upset. She feels that people have been banned for speaking out against homophobes. Perhaps that part of her post could have been compassionately addressed (without going into specifics) and she could have just been reassured that this wasn't the case at all ... without her also being threatened or her feelings minimized (i.e., she's creating drama).

Your response to Mergirl doesn't give me much hope that genuine differences of opinion will be treated respectfully by all moderators.
LaLa City was banned?

now I'm sad. I love that girl, makes me laugh...
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by mergirl View Post
Also, a point just made by someone who pm'ed me. These hate speakers can spew their hate in a generic way; So that technically, they are not breaking any hyde park rules. Then of course people have no other option but to personally attack. I'll tell you that homophobic abuse doesnt seem quite so generic when you have been subjected to it. It becomes personal.
I think you're reading into things. There is absolutely no grand plot against anyone or any group, and I suppose you probably know that already. There will always be situations where someone feels that someone else gets away with something when another person doesn't. I don't think the instant conclusion should then be that there is a conspiracy against this group or that. That's simply not so.

There are over a thousand posts a day. So that's a lot to go over. In addition, we're fighting the relentless break-in attempts of trolls and spammers behind the scenes 24/7. The banlist contains over 2,400 entries, almost all spammers and trolls.

Of legitimate posters, occasionally some get hot under the collar and may break rules. If moderators act, they will invariably accused of censuring free speech by the one side, and of protecting evil hate speech by the other side.

As is, I'll most likely close down HP anyway. It was meant to be a place where current topics are discussed. Instead, it's almost constant fighting and people who came here for the same reasons end up becoming enemies. Not worth it.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:41 PM   #11
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I think you're reading into things. There is absolutely no grand plot against anyone or any group, and I suppose you probably know that already. There will always be situations where someone feels that someone else gets away with something when another person doesn't. I don't think the instant conclusion should then be that there is a conspiracy against this group or that. That's simply not so.

There are over a thousand posts a day. So that's a lot to go over. In addition, we're fighting the relentless break-in attempts of trolls and spammers behind the scenes 24/7. The banlist contains over 2,400 entries, almost all spammers and trolls.

Of legitimate posters, occasionally some get hot under the collar and may break rules. If moderators act, they will invariably accused of censuring free speech by the one side, and of protecting evil hate speech by the other side.

As is, I'll most likely close down HP anyway. It was meant to be a place where current topics are discussed. Instead, it's almost constant fighting and people who came here for the same reasons end up becoming enemies. Not worth it.
I really didnt think there was any grand plot or anything. i just found it unfair that bigoted people could make generic comments and would remain unscathed (well mod speaking) and when people who are vermantly against what they are saying get pissed off they get banned. I get that people have to toe the line it just seemed unfair to me. Hyde park is pretty mental..i only ever post there when i'm feeling all brave.. it is very frantic..
Thank you for keeping all the trolls and spammers at bay... i do hope lala comes back soon though.. she speaks a lot of sense and is more funny than a homophobe!
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:42 PM   #12
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As one of the mods of this forum, I don't think Sandie's response was a threat. Instead, it was an example that Conrad and the mod team are supportive of the GLBTQ community, hence, there wouldn't be this forum that was up and running within, what, a month or so after mer and george83 started a post asking for it.

Hyde Park, by its nature, has extreme views, and I stay away from it because I find a lot of it hateful, ignorant, and shrill. The culture in Hyde Park is created by everyone who posts there, not just the ones whose views I may find distasteful, and for some reason that level of dialogue serves a purpose to the community here, or otherwise it would die a slow death from lack of posting.

However, bringing the drama and the arguing from Hyde Park into this forum only serves to drive a bigger wedge between people here and I want no part of it. In only a month, I've heard grumblings from both sides of the spectrum-those who feel Dimensions supports homophobic hate speech, and those who believe Dims supports heterophobic beliefs from the people who actively participate on this forum. As I said in the Introductory text that Conrad posted (and if you haven't read it, go do so-it lays out what this forum is, and isn't), the GLBTQ forum is meant to be an integrated part of the the Dims community. Any community as large and diverse as Dims is will undoubtedly have posts that make us mad, that go against our beliefs, and will hurt us, regardless of sexuality. By no means does the bad action of a few reflect the attitude of Conrad and the mods, and since this site is in many ways a microcosm of society, I don't see how we can ever make this website a 100% safe space from hurtful words filled with racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-religious bias, sizeist bias, abelist bias, and so on.

To reflect the attitude and approach of the haters, though, doesn't solve the problem, it just polarizes things further. I hope we can find a way to not let the hate of a few taint all the warm and supportive words we've gotten from our straight allies, including the mod team and Conrad. Finally, though, i've seen a lot of people banned here over the years, and never have I seen someone banned for the reasons that have been suggested in this thread. I've had my fair share of heated debate in Hyde Park, including a nasty thread about transphobia where I was in the minority in my attack on Ann Coulter is a man style bashing, and I never got threatened with being banned. That doesn't strike me as an outcome that would have happened if Dimensions is as gay-intolerant as some are suggesting.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:52 PM   #13
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I dont think Dims is intolerant of gay people (there is an lgbtq forum, which is great!). I was talking about how strange it seems to me that those spouting hate to begin with are NOT banned while those who get heated ARE. It would be the same if any form of bigotry was spouted, racism, fatophobia, transphobia. I would understand that people would get angry at those who were racist, fatist, erm..transophobic!?
Anyway, it is off my chest and i have said what i think, Conrad has, like a snuggly father type reasured me that this is not infact the homohate hellmouth and i can see that it obviously isnt.
Excellent. I'm just happy and grateful that non gay's have stuck up for us as i hope all of us would stuck up for anyone being bigotted to any other group of people here. Well, except bigots.. its ok to be bigot biggoted i feel!!
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:07 PM   #14
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Hehe, snuggly father type, huh? Well, here's a pearl of wisdom: a very long time ago one of my teachers told me in school that it was better to be approximately right than completely wrong. I felt that was very good advice and I've always tried to live by it. Most of us get it approximately right most of the time, though not always, and that's better than being totally wrong.

Lala will be back soon enough. Seems like after eight infractions the system gave her a two week timeout. Back in the day, they lashed us after just one or two warnings, so eight isn't so bad.

Anyway, we're doing the best we can, we're really trying. Also, contrary to common belief, the mod team doesn't consist of ogres, except for two or three and we hardly ever let them out. The rest are really very nice people and I wouldn't know what to do without them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mergirl View Post
I dont think Dims is intolerant of gay people (there is an lgbtq forum, which is great!). I was talking about how strange it seems to me that those spouting hate to begin with are NOT banned while those who get heated ARE. It would be the same if any form of bigotry was spouted, racism, fatophobia, transphobia. I would understand that people would get angry at those who were racist, fatist, erm..transophobic!?
Anyway, it is off my chest and i have said what i think, Conrad has, like a snuggly father type reasured me that this is not infact the homohate hellmouth and i can see that it obviously isnt.
Excellent. I'm just happy and grateful that non gay's have stuck up for us as i hope all of us would stuck up for anyone being bigotted to any other group of people here. Well, except bigots.. its ok to be bigot biggoted i feel!!
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:09 PM   #15
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Is there any particular reason that we're not allowed to know why the two posters mentioned previously were banned? If the bans are legitimate then I don't understand what withholding the reason accomplishes. It might even be educational for some posters to have the lines be defined more clearly to use as an example for what is proper and what isn't. I understand that you mods aren't exactly eager to justify every banning, but what would be the harm in justifying it in cases where you have been asked to do so?

So, ummm... why were they banned?
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:19 PM   #16
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Is there any particular reason that we're not allowed to know why the two posters mentioned previously were banned? If the bans are legitimate then I don't understand what withholding the reason accomplishes. It might even be educational for some posters to have the lines be defined more clearly to use as an example for what is proper and what isn't. I understand that you mods aren't exactly eager to justify every banning, but what would be the harm in justifying it in cases where you have been asked to do so?

So, ummm... why were they banned?
yea this.

Especially LaLa, cause she makes me laugh.

FREE LALA!!
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:28 PM   #17
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Anyway, we're doing the best we can, we're really trying. Also, contrary to common belief, the mod team doesn't consist of ogres, except for two or three and we hardly ever let them out. The rest are really very nice people and I wouldn't know what to do without them.
Uh, you notice I haven't been around much...

Mer and others, one thing I want to say directly addresses reported posts and infractions>time out>banning.

As Conrad said, we get a LOT of daily posts. Even if we were to spend most of our days doing nothing but reading the boards and all of the threads and posts, there's no way we could do it all in one day. And let's face it, we all have lives, responsibilities. We really need for people to report posts when they violate the rules ASAP. Now, not all posts that are reported are actually within the bounds of rules violations, but many are, so they will not ALL be acted on, but we need the reporting system. Contrary to what some have complained about, it's actually possible for very nasty posts that would likely actually violate rules to stand for days and none of us knows about it, because it hasn't been reported. Then, it's assumed that we all must approve of said nasty posts because nothing has been done about it. Then, someone reports it and action is taken, but by then it's pages and pages later and people are complaining that we don't care and that it must be okay. And by then it's turned into such a shitstorm that the thread may have to be closed (which we really don't like to do, but sometimes have to).

The other thing is Time Outs. It's unfortunate that a time out runs under the general heading of "Banned," because it's really not a permanent ban, just a bit of time. Frankly, the only people who get truly banned after one post are true trolls and spammers. Regular community members have to work at bannings and time outs. There have to be multiple infractions -- and before infractions always come warnings (often informal, from a mod, first, then more formal through the system software).

And I, too, believe that what Sandie was getting at was that this board (and the people who populate it) was supported, as was Butch. Butch was warmly welcomed, as was this section of Dimensions. Wouldn't it be weird to welcome this venue and then support bigotry? Fact is, lots of things can be said in many ways that do not technically violate the rules. But unless it actually does, there's not much we can do. We cannot read into peoples' intentions, but instead their actual words. There is also some value in letting people spew and show their true colors no? It's a mixed thing, editing people's rule-breaking nasty comments. Times when I've had to do it it's been a mix of relief it's off the boards, and feeling badly that many others who don't read HP won't know what their real views are and that they might be taken in by them elsewhere on the boards.

Lastly, remember, there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that no one but admins see. If you (the general you) receive an infraction, others don't see it. So you and someone else can be involved in a terrible flame war and you're giving as good as you get, but all you know is that you've been infracted and it seems like the other person hasn't. Guess what? You have no idea that they have, because you cannot see their infractions, just as they cannot see yours.

No one likes to be moderated; no one likes to be told what they can and cannot do. There are some very fun parts to moderating -- the parts that involve helping -- but there are some very discouraging parts, too. We all try to do the best job we can. We are guaranteed that at any given time a number of people will be glad we're here, and a number of people will wish we weren't. One of the things we all have in common is that we moderate because we love this place, and so many of the people that make this place a community.

Lastly, Jim, you can go read HP rules. That lays out the guidelines for most of the boards. We do not get into posting specifics about members, and certainly are not interested in endless back and forth explanations, as some have wanted us to do. Rest assured that the person who has been given a time out at any given time knows why, and all in all, that's what matters.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:50 PM   #18
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I think you're reading into things. There is absolutely no grand plot against anyone or any group, and I suppose you probably know that already. There will always be situations where someone feels that someone else gets away with something when another person doesn't. I don't think the instant conclusion should then be that there is a conspiracy against this group or that. That's simply not so.

There are over a thousand posts a day. So that's a lot to go over. In addition, we're fighting the relentless break-in attempts of trolls and spammers behind the scenes 24/7. The banlist contains over 2,400 entries, almost all spammers and trolls.

Of legitimate posters, occasionally some get hot under the collar and may break rules. If moderators act, they will invariably accused of censuring free speech by the one side, and of protecting evil hate speech by the other side.

As is, I'll most likely close down HP anyway. It was meant to be a place where current topics are discussed. Instead, it's almost constant fighting and people who came here for the same reasons end up becoming enemies. Not worth it.
Can I just say Conrad, that I was once very good friends with a few posters here, and now we no longer talk, due to posts on that board.
The Gaza thread in particular really upset and hurt me, and I felt very marginalized along with other Jews here at Dims.
I do not think those friendships can be retrieved.
It is a very sad situation.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:05 PM   #19
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Is there any particular reason that we're not allowed to know why the two posters mentioned previously were banned? If the bans are legitimate then I don't understand what withholding the reason accomplishes. It might even be educational for some posters to have the lines be defined more clearly to use as an example for what is proper and what isn't. I understand that you mods aren't exactly eager to justify every banning, but what would be the harm in justifying it in cases where you have been asked to do so?

So, ummm... why were they banned?

JiminOR -

Let me try to explain it like this.

If you were a poster who violated some rules and then received a time out (temporary ban), it would be dealt with behind the scenes in PMs, in a private fashion. We would not publicly or privately discuss your infraction, banning or anything regarding that situation with any of the other posters here. It would be (and should be) between you and the mods/admins. If you choose to tell people why you were banned or infracted, well that would be up to you. However, no one else here at Dimensions will hear about why you were banned from any of the mods, because quite frankly it would be no one else's business.

I hope my point is taken.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:17 PM   #20
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I am not going to discuss why I was given a time out for 24 hours. Looking back I probably needed it, because I just got too emotional about the issue, and I needed to step back from it. The choice was made for me.

I actually felt better when I had a bit of time to reflect away from here.

I do feel passionately about gay rights, as I am an Auntie of eleven year old twins who have two Daddies, so it is a part of our lives, and the fabric of our family.

Anyway.

Water under the bridge.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:44 PM   #21
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JiminOR -

Let me try to explain it like this.

If you were a poster who violated some rules and then received a time out (temporary ban), it would be dealt with behind the scenes in PMs, in a private fashion. We would not publicly or privately discuss your infraction, banning or anything regarding that situation with any of the other posters here. It would be (and should be) between you and the mods/admins. If you choose to tell people why you were banned or infracted, well that would be up to you. However, no one else here at Dimensions will hear about why you were banned from any of the mods, because quite frankly it would be no one else's business.

I hope my point is taken.
You do have a point, but I thought the question was still valid, and I didn't mean any criticism by it. And yes, of course there are rules posted. But if people are asking why, then clearly something was either misinterpreted or not made clear in the rules. As for privacy, I can go back and check their post history and try to piece it together myself if I really wanted to, and draw my own conclusions from that, rather than have a nice simple real explanation that would completely explain the whole thing without me having to make assumptions.

And I wasn't saying you have to explain every banning, just the ones you were asked about. And although I completely agree with protecting peoples privacy, this is a public forum, and the posts in question are still out there floating on the interwebs for everybody to see, I don't see where privacy is relevant. And I've never been happy in any phase of my with the response to a why question being 'just cause we said so'. Tell us why, educate us.

Clearly mergirl doesn't understand why. I would think that she has a grasp on the posted rules. I've never seen any posts of hers to the contrary.

Now, before you get the wrong idea, this is just the way I think of it. I think the whole banning timeout thing should be an open process and not shrouded in secrecy. This is clearly not the way you think it should be handled. I'm just presenting this as another viewpoint to be considered, nothing more, nothing less. I understand that this post will probably change nothing, but if it gets some discussion on the matter, and some serious thought, then that's cool with me. Not looking to change anybodys mind, just consider the alternatives if you haven't already.

So yeah, don't really have much more to add, and I'm sorry if my previous post came off as strident, I was typing on an iphone, and those little buggers are hard to type on, so I tried to keep it short and simple. No offense was meant, and I hope none was taken.

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Old 02-23-2009, 10:54 PM   #22
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I cant speak for Lala, but I would prefer my time out not be discussed publicly.

It happened, I have learnt from it, and I would prefer to move on.
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:43 PM   #23
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Jim, I get why you would want transparency on the banning issue, but honestly, I wouldn't want to know anything about it. Not my business. Why drag the drama thru wet sand? You'd just get sand everywhere and you know how hard it is to get sand out of your clothes after you come from the beach....blech!
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:08 AM   #24
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Jim, I get why you would want transparency on the banning issue, but honestly, I wouldn't want to know anything about it. Not my business. Why drag the drama thru wet sand? You'd just get sand everywhere and you know how hard it is to get sand out of your clothes after you come from the beach....blech!
Yeah I agree.... and chuckling at the wet sand analogy. If Lala wants to share why she was banned, she will. In the meantime, I will miss her.

As for losing friendships because of HP, I think that if a friendship can't withstand heated discussion, then it's not a true friendship. My truest, bestest friends are people I can passionately disagree with and love even more despite our disagreements. It takes a lot for me to end a friendship, and I've never ended one over being on two sides of an issue. I have, however, ended friendships because the other person was too toxic, too entrenched in bad habits and tried to drag me down with them. I can tolerate a lot but being yanked, emotionally speaking, over a cliff? No way.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:04 AM   #25
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Just to chime in since it seems to be spill your guts night: banning a community member isn't something that any Mod enjoys (booting trolls and spammers are of course another thing).

It usually happens because an individual is unwilling (or perhaps unable due to emotional involvement) to accept guidance to change their behavior after repeated PM warnings and lesser forms of penalty. It is most frequently not a matter of position on any specific issue, but a matter of refusal to follow the rules and complying to suggestions that they "cool it.".

Now what about transparency? What is to be gained (other than stigmatization and providing fodder for pro and con discussiobs) if we were to publicly litigate and analyze every time out? The goal of such action, when taken, is to give the person involved time to think and reflect. We want to ideally welcome back such persons as full community members, not drive them away!
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