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Old 07-11-2009, 12:36 AM   #1
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Angry "BHM's are insecure" rant.

Maybe I am alone here but honestly this drives me nuts to hear and read. So please excuse a mild mannered outburst.

I understand being frustrated about BHM's being insecure, but honestly the frustration you feel will probably only serve to fuel our angst if you make it known, I speak from experience, but it also depends on the personality. Hearing that our insecurities cause you some form of issue only makes matters worse as there is no simple fix for the issue, and if you truly liked us for who we are, there would be no need to change anything about us including our insecurity; see where I'm coming from? You don't buy a frog and expect it to feel like a prince simply because you kissed it, that'd be silly, not the best analogy as it implies ugliness which is not the case but the best I could muster atm. The feelings we have are an issue you will face with many BHM's, this is something FA/FFA's must come to terms with themselves and not be lumped solely onto the guys as simple insecurity. Acceptance requires more than one party for it to be absolute, a fat guy can feel totally secure in himself but it will do him no good if no one admires the traits he possesses.

You as a self proclaimed FA/FFA's must take some responsibility if this is the type of person you plan to date, or decide you simply cannot accept the insecurity your potenial BHM may possess and move on. Complaining about the issues of buying a used car, knowing full well when you bought that car that there may be issues, tells me either you did no research and took no test drive and simply adore how cute that 1979 pinto looked on the lot. Kinda goofy. Perhaps it's you who are insecure, in that you feel you must settle for the car with issues because it looked good from a distance or were simply too apathetic to make sure its what you really wanted and bought it soley based on appearance in the hope you can "fix" it? Hmmmmmmmm. Non sequitur? Perhaps not.

If we could flip a switch and be comfortable and perhaps even slightly cocky, I'm sure we would, but it doesn't work this way and adding more for him to worry about is not going to be productive. Being comfortable with someone who actually likes the way you look can have an amazing impact on ones self esteem over time and make him see that he can be attractive and sexy to women but you simply cannot prove ones insecurities wrong and expect them to be "cured". Just my two cents, hope it's not offensive or taken as snide or lashing out, but honestly the "big guys are so insecure" whine is getting old, especially in the forums of acceptance and support which sites like this are supposed to offer seems at least mildly hyocritical to me. You simply do not take years of being socially admonished in a society where BHM's are the oafish comedic support and not taken very seriously and throw it aside. I agree that we must take some personal responsibility for our own happiness and self esteem, but to me being labelled insecure for your lack of understanding is equally frustrating.

I struggled with my insecurity for many years before I finally got to a point where I simply said I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by not letting it get me down and taking risks, now I'm always pushing to better myself and prove myself wrong. I now have "fit" friends who constantly ask me how the hell I can get so many numbers and dates especially being as big as I am. I know that taking risks and being patient (mostly with myself) pays great dividends but it took time and some amazingly, what I at least, deemed to be "out of my league" women. While I'm still "single" I'm having a blast living the life I should have always had, meeting new people and having lots of fun. ;p Give the guys a chance and maybe give them some support and allow them to insecure until they feel safe, and allow them to get to the place you need them to be and they deserve to be without labels and more frustration.

RANT OVER! I dont post much and I hate to have an initial post be a possible bone of contention, but I felt the need to vent, its something i've seen a few times that has simply driven me friggin nutty.
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Old 07-11-2009, 10:05 AM   #2
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I dont know if this makes it different for me...but Im a gay guy, in my community people should be thin and pretty....but I choose not to be. Why? I like being a big guy. The foodz are good :-)

I also like other big guys too....but I still see alot of insecurity from other big guys. Its a shame because if only they could just see what some of the other people think of them, they would be so much more happier to know that alot of girls and guys alike (no matter what sexuality you are) love big boys.

I know for me in a partner I have always wanted someone who is as comfortable in their skin as me. Im 380 lbs and 5'6, i love food and my largeness. In fact, most people ask me if I would change if I had diabetes or something, I wouldn't change even towards the end of my life. Why? Because its a part of my identity and who I am.

I can understand if it is definitely an issue with "being in the wrong body" type idea. I experienced this when I was 170 lbs...I felt naked and that I needed to be alot bigger. However, people, when this topic comes up, need to be open about that...and realize that they are the only ones that can make the change needed. Walking around like your genitals are coated with sandpaper is not gonna change anything. If you want to be thin, be open and honest! :-) If you want to be fat, be open and honest. If you dont give a rats ***, be open and honest! :-)

Im off to get me some breakfast...oh lets say 5 waffles, 2 bowls of cereal and some chocolate espresso. Guess i will be buying some new pants soon :-)
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:57 AM   #3
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We all have our own issues we have to deal with. I know for me I have trouble going up to a woman, and talking to them. I haven't had any just come up to me, and start talking. But I can see how some guys would worry about why they were talking to them. As far as being touched I don't mind it. If a woman loves to rub my belly then thats great. If she wants to tell me that I look good or that I am sexy thats even better. Some guys just don't know how to handle that stuff. I think most guys will get past being insecure once they realize their girlfriend likes their body. But it can not be fixed by making it a huge issue.
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Old 07-12-2009, 01:20 PM   #4
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Well, it's good to hear that you are confident and successful, but I don't know if I really agree with your post.

My first point of disagreement is that you claim FA/FFAs must take some responsibility when it comes to "their" BHMs insecurity or lack of confidence. Both sides of a relationship have responsibilities, nobody can argue that. However, it is not fair to expect someone interested in you to "fix" you or put up with a bad attitude all the time. Sure, it would be lame if they tried to help you for like a week or two then threw in the towel, but what kind of long term help are you talking about here? We are all grown men and women; it is up to our own selves to become what we want to be. If your confidence sucks then you gotta fix it! You cant expect to find a magical FFA to come fix your life.

You also say that if they truly like us for who we are, they should accept us for everything, including our insecurities. Well hell, everyone has insecurities. Show me someone who doesn't and I will show you someone who probably isn't true to their self. If you are so insecure and so lacking in confidence in yourself that it becomes an issue for someone who likes you, then YOU need to fix it. If that person truly cares for you then I would hope they would try and help you a little, but if you don't work on it yourself they have every right to drop you like a hot potato.

Really, the whole point of contention for me is that you sound like you are passing the buck. "I am broken, someone should fix me.". It doesn't work like that. The whole point of dating is to find someone you are compatible with, who you can love with all your heart, and who can see past your flaws and insecurities (to a degree). If you find that something about you is turning away the girls, figure out what it is and get rid of it!



P.S. - sorry if this post sucks, I have had a few beers today after working outside in the hot Florida sun!
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Old 07-12-2009, 11:08 PM   #5
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Well, it's good to hear that you are confident and successful, but I don't know if I really agree with your post.

My first point of disagreement is that you claim FA/FFAs must take some responsibility when it comes to "their" BHMs insecurity or lack of confidence. Both sides of a relationship have responsibilities, nobody can argue that. However, it is not fair to expect someone interested in you to "fix" you or put up with a bad attitude all the time. Sure, it would be lame if they tried to help you for like a week or two then threw in the towel, but what kind of long term help are you talking about here? We are all grown men and women; it is up to our own selves to become what we want to be. If your confidence sucks then you gotta fix it! You cant expect to find a magical FFA to come fix your life.

You also say that if they truly like us for who we are, they should accept us for everything, including our insecurities. Well hell, everyone has insecurities. Show me someone who doesn't and I will show you someone who probably isn't true to their self. If you are so insecure and so lacking in confidence in yourself that it becomes an issue for someone who likes you, then YOU need to fix it. If that person truly cares for you then I would hope they would try and help you a little, but if you don't work on it yourself they have every right to drop you like a hot potato.

Really, the whole point of contention for me is that you sound like you are passing the buck. "I am broken, someone should fix me.". It doesn't work like that. The whole point of dating is to find someone you are compatible with, who you can love with all your heart, and who can see past your flaws and insecurities (to a degree). If you find that something about you is turning away the girls, figure out what it is and get rid of it!



P.S. - sorry if this post sucks, I have had a few beers today after working outside in the hot Florida sun!

lol, your post doesn't suck and I can see your arguents but I think you kinda misunderstood some points.

First I don't need anyone to fix me, I am fine in who I am because of the people I have met who were patient and loving and if this were given to others I'm sure they could become far more confident as well. I am not passing the buck at all, it is our own responsibility to deal with our own issues as I said, but the complaint gets rather old. I am simply saying that if they are going to date large men they should expect issues until a guy can confront and deal with those issues on his own as is his personal responsibility. I also agree that they have the right to drop us like a hot potato was my point. More or less it boiled down to shit or get off the pot. Dont complain, decide for yourself and either accept it, or move on.

Another point I made was that they SHOULDN'T be trying to fix a guy but rather looking inward to be sure the potential issues they will face are issues they are prepared to handle and this is where their responsibility comes into play. I would not go into a relationship with an anorexic and not expect there to be issues or expect there to be low self esteem and I see it much the same as being overweight. I agree with everyone having insecurities, but complaining because something bothers you when you went readily into the relationship seems kind of silly, if it bothers you enough to complain about then perhaps you should re-evaluate the entire situation and decide if it is tolerable. As Extra echoed complaining can create a bigger issue than there was intitially. How many big guys will not try at all because they feel that their insecurities will be an issue?

I am thankful for the supportive women that allowed me to find myself while loving me for me and it bothers me that other guys may not be afforded the same chance to become confident with themselves in someones admiration because of someone elses inability to understand why he simply cannot see how awesome he is, if he could just see how awesome he was there wouldn't be an insecurity at all and this is where the support and understanding comes in, not complaint and pressure. This is true not just of weight but any possible insecurity. I think we are all more than aware of our insecurities, so someone else bringing them up and calling them into question is not going to make anyone have a DUH, WTF WAS I THINKING moment and make everything right.

PS, you sharing those beers or just rubbing it in? lol
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:20 AM   #6
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You know whats funny is you act as though self-confidence, attraction, and all that are strictly a BHM issue. I've coached a lot of guys in Pickup in Las Vegas and I've seen guys who are pretty damn good looking totally blow it up because of an utter lack of confidence. I'm near 500 lbs and as many here know I have a tendency to "date" strippers and all manner of attractive women.

That said I rarely think of my size. Other than how cute some tiny women look next to me. I'm almost always in fun mode and I can't stress it enough to guys how important it is to STAY OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD! Stop thinking Should I say this should I say that, how do I look? Will she notice my shirt, my scar, my fat, my face, my whatever.... at this point it is a bit hard for me to remember why I was like that at one time. It did take practice at first, but now I can't imagine being any other way. I realized how much my moods and my thoughts affected a woman I was attracting. As long as I stayed out of my head OMG it was ON! Thats the real funny part, you can actually be totally self-conscious, but as long as you learn how to put it outside of your thoughts and just ignore it you can work wonders. I honestly remember this time when there was a girl who was hesitant to shall we say go the extra mile cause she was insecure so I decided I would pretend being naked was no big deal and I took mine off first and just ignored how totally self conscious I was about my belly hanging over my undies. I knew it would work cause a group of girls did it to me not long before that (nothing like some hot women offering to take off their pants to get you to take off yours too).

I do still dig FFA's the most. There is just something so cute about an FFA hugging me and holding onto my belly with a big ass mischievous grin. No matter what your build or body type finding someone who likes you for you first is golden and it just makes the fetish side Icing on the Cake.

To all and any insecure guys reading this: dude you wanna hold onto your insecurities that's your own issue, but do yourself a favor. When your with other people put it out of you head! You will find yourself 100x more attractive to other people even if you don't know how to see the interest and attraction (that's a whole other topic).

Yeah I'm cocky. I'm also fun at parties and go well with any side dish.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:38 PM   #7
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You know whats funny is you act as though self-confidence, attraction, and all that are strictly a BHM issue. I've coached a lot of guys in Pickup in Las Vegas and I've seen guys who are pretty damn good looking totally blow it up because of an utter lack of confidence. I'm near 500 lbs and as many here know I have a tendency to "date" strippers and all manner of attractive women.



Yeah I'm cocky. I'm also fun at parties and go well with any side dish.
Ok I am confused...dating a stripper is something to be proud of? Oh yeah it must be cause they are all working their way through med school right?
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:04 PM   #8
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^^^ I think it was his way to "prove" (for lack of a better word) that he dates hott women, despite his size.

I hope you didn't get too caught up on that one line and miss the really great points in the rest of his post.
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:10 PM   #9
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^^^ I think it was his way to "prove" (for lack of a better word) that he dates hott women, despite his size.

I hope you didn't get too caught up on that one line and miss the really great points in the rest of his post.
LOL I have yet to see a stripper who was "hot" in normal lighting. (Which sort of explains my confusion)

But dont worry your pretty little head, I read his entire post.
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Old 07-20-2009, 04:20 PM   #10
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Ok I am confused...dating a stripper is something to be proud of? Oh yeah it must be cause they are all working their way through med school right?
Some are quality some unfortunately are not. One of my favorites however as mentioned in another thread was actually doing it to pay her way through Chef School which is where I met her at a Le Cordon Bleu party...let me tell ya, there is no better party than one thrown by Chef Students OMG the Food was amazing! In Las Vegas its pretty common that the extremely attractive and well carried women are strippers at the upper end clubs they tend to make around $100-250k a year. So nope not a med student but I thought it was pretty bad ass she was 19 paying her own way though school having a blast in Vegas and had already started saving the money to open her own restaurant when she is done.....come on man I'm a BHM you should have known it had just as much to do with food as anything else lol

...And Lisa, Shame on you....your nicer than all that and I know it.

here I'll re post our pic from the other thread since you missed it.
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Old 07-20-2009, 04:27 PM   #11
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^^^ I think it was his way to "prove" (for lack of a better word) that he dates hott women, despite his size.

I hope you didn't get too caught up on that one line and miss the really great points in the rest of his post.
It was more meant as an illustrated example but hey thanks, and its ok. People tend to react to me that way sometimes, I'm pretty used to it. Some read for content others read for self-justification and reaction. I'm glad you saw though to what I was really saying. As for the others who get it thanks for the PM's & Rep I'll write back when I have more time.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:08 PM   #12
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You know I love you dearly Escapist, so I will let this drop.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:12 PM   #13
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You know I love you dearly Escapist, so I will let this drop.
** Hugs you **
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by escapist View Post
You know whats funny is you act as though self-confidence, attraction, and all that are strictly a BHM issue. I've coached a lot of guys in Pickup in Las Vegas and I've seen guys who are pretty damn good looking totally blow it up because of an utter lack of confidence. I'm near 500 lbs and as many here know I have a tendency to "date" strippers and all manner of attractive women.

That said I rarely think of my size. Other than how cute some tiny women look next to me. I'm almost always in fun mode and I can't stress it enough to guys how important it is to STAY OUT OF YOUR OWN HEAD! Stop thinking Should I say this should I say that, how do I look? Will she notice my shirt, my scar, my fat, my face, my whatever.... at this point it is a bit hard for me to remember why I was like that at one time. It did take practice at first, but now I can't imagine being any other way. I realized how much my moods and my thoughts affected a woman I was attracting. As long as I stayed out of my head OMG it was ON! Thats the real funny part, you can actually be totally self-conscious, but as long as you learn how to put it outside of your thoughts and just ignore it you can work wonders. I honestly remember this time when there was a girl who was hesitant to shall we say go the extra mile cause she was insecure so I decided I would pretend being naked was no big deal and I took mine off first and just ignored how totally self conscious I was about my belly hanging over my undies. I knew it would work cause a group of girls did it to me not long before that (nothing like some hot women offering to take off their pants to get you to take off yours too).

I do still dig FFA's the most. There is just something so cute about an FFA hugging me and holding onto my belly with a big ass mischievous grin. No matter what your build or body type finding someone who likes you for you first is golden and it just makes the fetish side Icing on the Cake.

To all and any insecure guys reading this: dude you wanna hold onto your insecurities that's your own issue, but do yourself a favor. When your with other people put it out of you head! You will find yourself 100x more attractive to other people even if you don't know how to see the interest and attraction (that's a whole other topic).

Yeah I'm cocky. I'm also fun at parties and go well with any side dish.
Since there is no quotation here I have no idea who you are referring to but I can assume its me since I was last post before. There is no way I think this is a BHM only issue, this was response to posts I've seen here and in various communities as a repeating theme from women, its also why I made direct statements about their responsibilities. Trust me I know thin people who are insecure about being thin, models who fixate on a mole no one else notices and the like. That said I have seen many condescending ( I'm sure they are not meant to be ) posts about how awesome big guys are with the if only statement thrown in and this is what my post was about not in any way shape or form pigeonholing my boys into a group of insecure fuddies.

You pretty much backed me up with the rest of the post and I totally agree with you.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:16 AM   #15
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LOL I have yet to see a stripper who was "hot" in normal lighting. (Which sort of explains my confusion)
Neither have I. Ever. But if that's how some men get 'cred' so be it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:18 PM   #16
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Neither have I. Ever. But if that's how some men get 'cred' so be it.
Once again, look up at the picture, she's as cute as a button it does happen. You guys really have to come to Vegas, you know they got male strippers too if that's what you need. Here most everybody is hot....you can't help it when its 109 outside

UPDATE: I've just been informed that a lot of the strippers she knows here are are Professional Dancers, Personal Trainers, and Yoga instructors. Most the ones I personally know all drive BMW's and Mercedes remember this is the entertainment capital of the world. Some places you can't even get a job unless your represented by a modeling agency and stay within a certain body fat % and BHM's are forced to be Bouncers
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:26 PM   #17
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Once again, look up at the picture, she's as cute as a button it does happen. You guys really have to come to Vegas, you know they got male strippers too if that's what you need. Here most everybody is hot....you can't help it when its 109 outside

UPDATE: I've just been informed that a lot of the strippers she knows here are are Professional Dancers, Personal Trainers, and Yoga instructors. Most the ones I personally know all drive BMW's and Mercedes remember this is the entertainment capital of the world. Some places you can't even get a job unless your represented by a modeling agency and stay within a certain body fat % and BHM's are forced to be Bouncers

Cute is a matter of opinion though, right? I don't see it in her.

Now, if there were actual BHM's and very curvaceous, beautiful women stripping that would be entirely different. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and someone that looks 12 yo and totally plain is not my idea of strip worthy. Good thing I outgrew that phase of my life a long time ago.
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:41 PM   #18
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Cute is a matter of opinion though, right? I don't see it in her.

Now, if there were actual BHM's and very curvaceous, beautiful women stripping that would be entirely different. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and someone that looks 12 yo and totally plain is not my idea of strip worthy. Good thing I outgrew that phase of my life a long time ago.
lol the girls here say "Stop being a small boob and body hater" LOL. Its not so much her face or her body that makes her cute its a pleasing smile and a great personality. I simply enjoy people who are fun to be with I don't think its ever been about shape or size with me or them.

Oh more feedback from the girls here: "Stop discriminating against smaller people, just cause were not a big old amazon like you."

I wanna just sell tickets to this match and enjoy the ringside seats lol.
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Old 07-22-2009, 06:14 PM   #19
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lol the girls here say "Stop being a small boob and body hater" LOL. Its not so much her face or her body that makes her cute its a pleasing smile and a great personality. I simply enjoy people who are fun to be with I don't think its ever been about shape or size with me or them.

Oh more feedback from the girls here: "Stop discriminating against smaller people, just cause were not a big old amazon like you."

I wanna just sell tickets to this match and enjoy the ringside seats lol.
And once again, you don't make any sense to me. You told me to look. I did and I didn't see what you saw. There's no crime in that.

But yeah, for someone that doesn't come here much, you sure like to TRY stir the pot. It's quite amusing.
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:49 PM   #20
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At least he's not insecure with his love of strippers.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:31 PM   #21
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And once again, you don't make any sense to me. You told me to look. I did and I didn't see what you saw. There's no crime in that.

But yeah, for someone that doesn't come here much, you sure like to TRY stir the pot. It's quite amusing.
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At least he's not insecure with his love of strippers.
*** Hums the song "A lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cry'n" ***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xpS9oJiMQ

Funny thing is last time I sang this song I was hanging out with one of my stripper friends lol. Nope no insecurities here.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:16 AM   #22
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See, this is pretty classic. Guys should be confident, but not confident in a guy-guy, loud, proud, sort of way. Quietly confident is probably approved, confident but not actually liking most guy stuff is probably also good. But it does amuse me to see some people say “I want a partner who is confident” and then get aggravated about the mode of someone’s confidence.

Now, if you say “I want a guy who is confident but who would be approved of by the women at my office” or something like that, then I’ll let you off the hook. But if you just say confident, then the response to Escapist should be a hearty “I love your confidence!”

(To be clear, this rant is not so much aimed at have discerning tastes as it is at people not saying what they really mean).

For what it is worth, Escapist, to me you come across as matching up well with Las Vegas, with all that suggests. Certainly I wouldn't imagine it is to everyone's tastes, but look how many people flock to the city, so I'm sure your brand of confidence is to enough people's tastes. I'm glad you are enjoying life!
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:57 AM   #23
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LOL I have yet to see a stripper who was "hot" in normal lighting. (Which sort of explains my confusion)
Most women, even those you don't find attractive can look "hot" in the dark especially with full war paint on, in cute costumes and performing provocative acts but not so much in normal lighting with minimal makeup. Even celebrities are not immune to that so why should strippers be any different?

I worked (but kept my clothes on) in a gentlemen's club and some of the most popular girls there are considered "plain" in bright daylight and talk about how they hardly get hit on outside of work. Guys are far more likely to find strippers attractive in clubs for so many reasons: they go there hang out with their male friends and hence tend to consciously or subconsciously act in a typical rowdy male way, others are stressed and would like a little distraction while some might enjoy a little cock-teasing or ego-boosting from a nude woman in a seductress role who flirts with him, listens to him (it is not just about sex) and basically give him her full attention, at least for the dance he buys. It is not just about looks (we have different preferences anyway) but companionship, entertainment and fantasy.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:14 AM   #24
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Most women, even those you don't find attractive can look "hot" in the dark especially with full war paint on, in cute costumes and performing provocative acts but not so much in normal lighting with minimal makeup. Even celebrities are not immune to that so why should strippers be any different?

I worked (but kept my clothes on) in a gentlemen's club and some of the most popular girls there are considered "plain" in bright daylight and talk about how they hardly get hit on outside of work. Guys are far more likely to find strippers attractive in clubs for so many reasons: they go there hang out with their male friends and hence tend to consciously or subconsciously act in a typical rowdy male way, others are stressed and would like a little distraction while some might enjoy a little cock-teasing or ego-boosting from a nude woman in a seductress role who flirts with him, listens to him (it is not just about sex) and basically give him her full attention, at least for the dance he buys. It is not just about looks (we have different preferences anyway) but companionship, entertainment and fantasy.
Well there is a lovely dose of reality right there. Oddly enough I've never gone to one of the girls clubs. I always meet them outside of work at personal parties, grocery stores and pretty much normal places like that.

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See, this is pretty classic. Guys should be confident, but not confident in a guy-guy, loud, proud, sort of way. Quietly confident is probably approved, confident but not actually liking most guy stuff is probably also good. But it does amuse me to see some people say “I want a partner who is confident” and then get aggravated about the mode of someone’s confidence.

Now, if you say “I want a guy who is confident but who would be approved of by the women at my office” or something like that, then I’ll let you off the hook. But if you just say confident, then the response to Escapist should be a hearty “I love your confidence!”

(To be clear, this rant is not so much aimed at have discerning tastes as it is at people not saying what they really mean).

For what it is worth, Escapist, to me you come across as matching up well with Las Vegas, with all that suggests. Certainly I wouldn't imagine it is to everyone's tastes, but look how many people flock to the city, so I'm sure your brand of confidence is to enough people's tastes. I'm glad you are enjoying life!
Thanks, once again the reality is I don't go out all the time. Admittedly I do have my party times but its not an every day thing. Keep in mind I haven't had a traditional job in over a year. I did absolutely embrace the funner side of life, but I still love just hanging out with Chicken Legs (my main squeeze). Often we go out to eat, go to a show, have drinks, nothing to crazy....The Crazy seems to happen when I go out with my buddies lol....ok its might even be the #1 reason they drag me out, they know I have no fear starting anything with anybody.
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:06 PM   #25
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I agree that the gals can't blame us for being a bit shy. I am a big guy, and I am an albino as well. Shyness just tends to go with the territory.
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