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Old 05-23-2009, 08:37 PM   #1
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Moderator’s note: This thread is an FA/FFA companion to the “are we (BBWs) too demanding” thread, here, in the BBW Forum.

This thread is designed to attract responses from both FAs/FFAs and potential SOs – which essentially includes everyone.

The question being presented here is whether fat women or fat men sometimes have unrealistic expectations when it comes to fat admirers And how much the FA/FFAs have trouble dealing with this.

When bbws/bhms talk about the kind of person they want, they say things like "I want a man/woman who wants me for me - a guy/gal who wants me despite my fat, or at least more than my fat." And as a result they trust no one and reject every overture.

The FAs and FFAs, tiring of this, possibly “settle” for going out not with who they would really like, but with people who are more friendly and less selective.

So, this is the question of this thread – what are typical expectations of everyone involved, and are they realistic or overly selective?

Last edited by Observer; 08-20-2009 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:34 PM   #2
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I'm going to have to agree and say yes some women have very unrealistic expectations. Ironically its been my experience that these unrealistic expectations are most often manifest by women who don't bring much to the table themselves. Its also been experience that this is not a fat thing -- thin women can be even more deluded.

The classic example is the Officer and Gentleman premise. The world is full of wannabees waiting to be saved from their life of drudgery. Unfortunately in the real word factory workers and store clerks seldom land that doctor/CEO/or fighter pilot. An example which I have personal knowledge of involved my mother-in-law -- as a young store clerk she had an affair with the married CEO of a rather large company and was upset when (surprise) he didn't leave his wife (FYI said MIL was about 105lbs at the time).

Another example is women who write off guys who don't fit a very narrow physical type. They use justifications like "I like what I like" or "I'm entitled to my preference." True -- but its also true that these women are draining much of the water out of the dating pool. I always find it ironic that women who don't want to be judged with regards to their physical appearance are often so quick to write off potential suitors based on physical characteristics.

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Old 08-18-2009, 08:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by TraciJo67 View Post

And I'd promptly show my partner the door if I ever caught a whiff that he felt he was settling.

This a classic logical fallacy. We all either settle or remain alone. Settling for good enough or as good as its going to get is what adults do. We all have a certain amount of romantic capital (i.e. looks, money, education, personality traits). We use this romantic capital to bargain for a romantic situation. Those gifted with money brains and looks have a multitude of ways to spend their romantic capital and may not have to compromise much. The rest of us will never be able to get everything we want. Accepting this fact is part of the maturation process.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:34 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by bigmac View Post
This a classic logical fallacy. We all either settle or remain alone. Settling for good enough or as good as its going to get is what adults do. We all have a certain amount of romantic capital (i.e. looks, money, education, personality traits). We use this romantic capital to bargain for a romantic situation. Those gifted with money brains and looks have a multitude of ways to spend their romantic capital and may not have to compromise much. The rest of us will never be able to get everything we want. Accepting this fact is part of the maturation process.

Wow. I bet your wife, of whom you've assured us has gone real far with her associates degree, finds this sentiment to be very romantic
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:41 PM   #5
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Clearly, you're impressed by credentials.

Meh. I'm an overly educated woman who is underwhelmed by many of my equally well-educated peers (and truth be told, I ain't exactly Einstein). I've learned that education doesn't equal intelligence. I see lots of people with "licensed" and "certified" and "MD" and "practitioner" gracing their impressive titles and it doesn't enure them from bigotry, general idiocy, and ridiculously obvious character flaws.

I'd take a hygenically challenged fish-monger over some PhD who thinks he's all that coz he can speak real purty.

I'm impressed by intelligence and achievement. Educational credentials are only a proxy. Actual intelligence takes a while to assess. However, if you're sorting through potential mates you have to use proxy measures to weed people out -- sorry Mr. fish-monger.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:43 PM   #6
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Wow. I bet your wife, of whom you've assured us has gone real far with her associates degree, finds this sentiment to be very romantic
If she wanted romantic she should have married someone else.
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by bigmac
If she wanted romantic she should have married someone else.
Now THAT is cold! Hopefully its just a joke.

In any event, this thread (FA/FFA version) is now officially launched.

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Old 08-20-2009, 01:53 AM   #8
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One point we need to realize is that selectivity as posed here relates simply to dating and friendship. However, a lot of FAs/FFA (not to mention SO’s) see dating as a prelude to courtship with an eventual possible goal of marriage. Such persons ratchet screening up a notch when it comes to dating.

Are some SO’s too demanding in their expectations before they'll date a person? The answer is yes - and so are some FA’s and FFA’s. Conversely some are so lacking in self esteem or caught up in PC issues they feel they have to date anyone with two legs that will cooperate. Both to me are extreme.

The core issue here is "how selective or broadminded should singles be in their willingness to date others?"

Thirty plus years ago I was involved with a large church singles group where this same selectivity (which is hardly restricted to size questions) was an issue. Our guideline: unless you have a good specific reason (i.e. you know he is a lecher) for not dating someone who wants to date you, accept at least one invitation. If in doubt make it a double date.

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Old 08-20-2009, 05:06 AM   #9
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I've been reading this thread both here, and in the BBW forum, and find this topic fascinating.

For my part, I think that generally, there should be some fundamental guidelines for what is acceptable and unacceptable for you in a relationship. Without those, you could be going down a road that may end up becoming a heap of emotional trouble in the future.

With that said, I also think that most men & women in general set unrealistic parameters for what they're looking for. I've seen personal ads that look like a laundry list, basically saying to a prospective date "don't even bother, unless.....", and wonder how may people actually respond with their resume that fits the bill. Perhaps those folks are happy to be on their own, and don't care, or events in their life have brought them to the point where they feel a need to be so selective. Either way, it eliminates a lot of people.

I always wanted a house on the beach in the Carribean. I own a house in New Jersey. Do I dislike my house because it's not in the Bahamas? Absolutely not. That's my point. Sometimes we don't really know what can make us happy, simply because we just haven't been there yet. My suggestion is, try it, you may just love it.

I've always held the thought that dating & relationships are like going through the bargain bin at your local department store. You won't know what's in it until you look, and often have to go through all the crap to get to the stuff that's just right for you. You can at least enjoy looking.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:06 AM   #10
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I've always held the thought that dating & relationships are like going through the bargain bin at your local department store. You won't know what's in it until you look, and often have to go through all the crap to get to the stuff that's just right for you. You can at least enjoy looking.
I agree with this. But then, I think we all have different criteria in terms of who we'd date vs. who we'd marry. To me, dating is all about getting to know someone, and if I were single, the only first date "qualifications" I'd be concerned with would be ... am I at least a little bit physically attracted to him, is he presentable, and am I reasonably certain that he's not a nutbar? I've met so many people of whom I had a very unfavorable first impression, and they are now dear friends. It's amazing, what I've learned when I've taken the time to get to know someone. I'm sure that the same applies to people who are dating in the hope of finding a longer-term companion. Like you, I think that there's a lot to be said for having fun while sorting through that bargain bin and trying on the different apparel
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:48 AM   #11
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This is not big person specific, but just a note from personal experience (my apologies to the people who have read this many times before). For most of my potential dating life I was looking for “the one.” I’m not sure that I was quite expecting an angelic chorus to appear and play a fanfare when I met her , but I was looking for someone that I would no doubt be happy to eventually marry. Needless to say, I basically didn’t date at all.

In my last year at university I concluded that “the one” was not currently nearby, so I should relax and actually just date for fun and dating experience. Just in case, when I did meet ‘the one’ the angelic chorus did not make it clear to her that we were meant to be together, and I had to have enough dating skills to make a good impression.

I made a point of meeting more women, one of whom seemed interested in me. There were at least three major reasons why I would not have dated her before then (i.e. things that clearly indicated to me that she was not ‘the one’), but this was just casual dating, for fun, so I ignored those. I haven’t needed to do any dating since then, and that was nearly nineteen years ago…turns out that ‘the one’ did come packaged the way that I expected.

So yah, I think most of us an image or package in mind, one that includes most or all of what we really want. But I think that we often overlook that that those same key qualities can come together in a different form.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:53 AM   #12
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I think people are as selective as they need to be, even if it comes across as being overly selective by others. Like any decision, finding a S.O. and living with a S.O. is a compromise in terms of getting the benefit of companionship as opposed to the freedom of living alone. A person decides whether it's better to associate with, co-exist with, or live with said potential S.O. or if it's better just to live alone. I think it's good to have high standards even if those standards may be unattainable in the long run, it makes sense to seek the best S.O. that can be found. If a person does eventually lower their standards that's all part of the give and take process of deciding whether it's better to live with a S.O. that has some characteristics which are considered undesirable or continue to live alone. I think people generally tend do what's right for them in the long run when it comes to this type of selectivity.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:36 PM   #13
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I've been reading this thread both here, and in the BBW forum, and find this topic fascinating.

For my part, I think that generally, there should be some fundamental guidelines for what is acceptable and unacceptable for you in a relationship. Without those, you could be going down a road that may end up becoming a heap of emotional trouble in the future.

With that said, I also think that most men & women in general set unrealistic parameters for what they're looking for. I've seen personal ads that look like a laundry list, basically saying to a prospective date "don't even bother, unless.....", and wonder how may people actually respond with their resume that fits the bill. Perhaps those folks are happy to be on their own, and don't care, or events in their life have brought them to the point where they feel a need to be so selective. Either way, it eliminates a lot of people.

I always wanted a house on the beach in the Carribean. I own a house in New Jersey. Do I dislike my house because it's not in the Bahamas? Absolutely not. That's my point. Sometimes we don't really know what can make us happy, simply because we just haven't been there yet. My suggestion is, try it, you may just love it.

I've always held the thought that dating & relationships are like going through the bargain bin at your local department store. You won't know what's in it until you look, and often have to go through all the crap to get to the stuff that's just right for you. You can at least enjoy looking.
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Originally Posted by fa_man_stan View Post
I think people are as selective as they need to be, even if it comes across as being overly selective by others. Like any decision, finding a S.O. and living with a S.O. is a compromise in terms of getting the benefit of companionship as opposed to the freedom of living alone. A person decides whether it's better to associate with, co-exist with, or live with said potential S.O. or if it's better just to live alone. I think it's good to have high standards even if those standards may be unattainable in the long run, it makes sense to seek the best S.O. that can be found. If a person does eventually lower their standards that's all part of the give and take process of deciding whether it's better to live with a S.O. that has some characteristics which are considered undesirable or continue to live alone. I think people generally tend do what's right for them in the long run when it comes to this type of selectivity.

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Old 08-20-2009, 05:35 PM   #14
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I think some women are too demanding. I have read a lot of personal ads over the last 8 years. It's amazing how many women refuse to date a man who is not 6 feet tall or rich (or both). It's also amazing how many women use a laundry list of preferences to determine whom they will date.

I often shake my head because I know that many of them will be eternal bachelorettes because they refused to be flexible.

I have my own preferences. The ones I will not be flexible on are that the woman be single, heterosexual, emotionally stable, a nonsmoker and accepting of people of different races and religions. Everything else is negotiable.



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Old 08-20-2009, 05:40 PM   #15
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I wonder if some of those people who set unrealistic parameters aren't trying to avoid a relationship. I've had a couple of friends whose requirements for a S.O. struck me as unlikely combiantions, if not downright contradictory: one was a lady who declared she wanted a man who was "macho but sensitive," and the other was a man who wanted to find a woman who was content to spend her life barefoot and pregnant -- but who had a Ph.D. He's still single, by the way.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:15 PM   #16
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For my part, I think that generally, there should be some fundamental guidelines for what is acceptable and unacceptable for you in a relationship. Without those, you could be going down a road that may end up becoming a heap of emotional trouble in the future.
I totally agree....standards/requirements are a must for everyone. A SO is someone you allow into the most personal aspects of your life. Not just anyone can fit into that special place.

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I wonder if some of those people who set unrealistic parameters aren't trying to avoid a relationship. I've had a couple of friends whose requirements for a S.O. struck me as unlikely combiantions, if not downright contradictory: one was a lady who declared she wanted a man who was "macho but sensitive," and the other was a man who wanted to find a woman who was content to spend her life barefoot and pregnant -- but who had a Ph.D. He's still single, by the way.
I tend to think that sometimes myself. It's convenient to say that we cannot find XYZ rather than admitting that XYZ petrifies us.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:37 PM   #17
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I've been reading this thread both here, and in the BBW forum, and find this topic fascinating.

For my part, I think that generally, there should be some fundamental guidelines for what is acceptable and unacceptable for you in a relationship. Without those, you could be going down a road that may end up becoming a heap of emotional trouble in the future.

With that said, I also think that most men & women in general set unrealistic parameters for what they're looking for. I've seen personal ads that look like a laundry list, basically saying to a prospective date "don't even bother, unless.....", and wonder how may people actually respond with their resume that fits the bill. Perhaps those folks are happy to be on their own, and don't care, or events in their life have brought them to the point where they feel a need to be so selective. Either way, it eliminates a lot of people.

I always wanted a house on the beach in the Carribean. I own a house in New Jersey. Do I dislike my house because it's not in the Bahamas? Absolutely not. That's my point. Sometimes we don't really know what can make us happy, simply because we just haven't been there yet. My suggestion is, try it, you may just love it.

I've always held the thought that dating & relationships are like going through the bargain bin at your local department store. You won't know what's in it until you look, and often have to go through all the crap to get to the stuff that's just right for you. You can at least enjoy looking.
Good points. I never understood the laundry list people.

Regarding beach houses If you're a millionaire you can buy a beach house almost anywhere you like. You may not be able to buy a specific house but there will be something available for you in almost any market. If you're of more modest means the Jersey Shore may be all you can afford. If you have even lesser means a box in an alley in Paterson have to suffice as your castle. Likewise if you're a tall, rich, good looking guy you'll likely be able to date any type of girl you fancy. If you're just average some types will be out of your league, and, if you're the box dweller your romantic options will be very limited. My basic point is just that people would be much happier if they face reality and not be unreasonable.

If you only make 30K a year you wouldn't shop for a million dollar beach house. Likewise, if you're not good looking and/or rich and/or otherwise superlative its foolish to think that you'll be able to land an exceptional mate.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:36 PM   #18
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Good points. I never understood the laundry list people.

Regarding beach houses If you're a millionaire you can buy a beach house almost anywhere you like. You may not be able to buy a specific house but there will be something available for you in almost any market. If you're of more modest means the Jersey Shore may be all you can afford. If you have even lesser means a box in an alley in Paterson have to suffice as your castle. Likewise if you're a tall, rich, good looking guy you'll likely be able to date any type of girl you fancy. If you're just average some types will be out of your league, and, if you're the box dweller your romantic options will be very limited. My basic point is just that people would be much happier if they face reality and not be unreasonable.

If you only make 30K a year you wouldn't shop for a million dollar beach house. Likewise, if you're not good looking and/or rich and/or otherwise superlative its foolish to think that you'll be able to land an exceptional mate.
From a pragmatic point of view, much of what you say may be true, at least on the surface. It still doesn't address the issue that "settling" for someone is hardly flattering, to either party. It's a pretty shitty thing to do, I think, as it's self-serving and disrespectful. I may not be Julia Roberts, nor do I make piles of money, but I don't think that means I should consider spending my life with someone whom I didn't respect, didn't love, and wasn't physically attracted to (if I were single). And I think that the term "exceptional mate" doesn't apply to the rich or the good-looking anyway, at least not as a primary quality. It doesn't speak to who that person is; it is merely a descriptive term of *what* he/she is.

I guess that's what bothers me about what you've written in this thread. It assumes that wealth or physical attributes are the most desirable traits that one could have. You may think that, but it doesn't make it everyone's reality.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:27 AM   #19
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[...]If you're just average some types will be out of your league, and, if you're the box dweller your romantic options will be very limited. My basic point is just that people would be much happier if they face reality and not be unreasonable.

If you only make 30K a year you wouldn't shop for a million dollar beach house. Likewise, if you're not good looking and/or rich and/or otherwise superlative its foolish to think that you'll be able to land an exceptional mate.
I'm not quite sure about the "if you're a seven, you'll end up with a seven etc." theory, because there is a self esteem factor involved. A nine may not be aware she is a nine, or not care she's a nine and give a six a chance, find out that six is everything she ever looked for in a numeric guy and more and end up happily sixty-nine-ing.

The problem with your theory is categorizing yourself in a certain slot. Am I an almost 30k guy with roguish good looks or a high 20k-er with a scar on my cheek? Who's going to decide? What are you missing out on by pidgeonholing yourself?
You may not understand laundry list people, but to fully realize your theory, an even bigger list has to be made, just not a romantic one, but a pragmatic one. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer a little romance.

On an unrelated note: I think shopping for an SO (instead of enjoying a good date) is wrong on all levels.

So back to the OP: are BBW/BHM too picky? No. There's a huge market for them out there, and being picky shows self esteem. That being said, people will always surprise you; the person that sweeps you of your feet may very well be someone you'd never expect, so it's important to give other people at least a chance.
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:10 AM   #20
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When the ex and I were talking with the marriage councilor, he made it clear that women are attracted to power, success and wealth. My ex-wife agreed 100%. My own opinion was that personal deveopement, growth and personality were what makes for attraction.
I was ridiculed by both, that I had no idea what makes the world go round, that i was ignoring what statstics and research showed. Now this was a psycologist who has written several books on this topic. Needless to say, we were divorced soon after.
I have seen very little though to disuade me that they were wrong, in the years after. IMHO, it s the rare jewel of a woman who agrees with my perspective.

As a male FA, I look not only for the big soft body, but an agile mind, eager to learn for learnings sake, empathy for people, and a sense of wonder at all that life can offer.
Am I being picky or expecting too much? Apparently so.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:02 AM   #21
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I think there are just so many variables here, including what type of relationship you're seeking, what your particular values are, what you bring to the table, and what may or may not be negotiable contingent on your particular situation.

If you are seeking a partner with whom to co-parent, it's not negotiable that your SO like children, have similar child rearing values, and have similar attitudes towards either adoption or assisted reproduction if infertility or age of the female is an issue. If religion plays a big part in your life, having an SO of the same religion may be non negotiable as far as your desire to raise children in your faith. Conversely, somebody looking for a casual sex partner might not care about religion.

Some people have high sex drives and some don't. Not everyone places the same level of importance of either sex or the importance of sexual attraction. So a hard core FA/FFA who is unhappy unless totally sexually fulfilled may flat out need a 400 pound pear shaped female or actively gaining BHM. An FA/FFA without a very high sex drive, or who is more interested in finding financial security and marriage may be willing to forgo the 400 pound mate if s/he has a trust fund or very high paying job.

If you are poor, or grew up poor, money may be a huge issue to you. You may be seeking a mate to provide financial security and that need may trump sexual attraction or having a "best friend" or common interests. I personally know a couple where the woman chose this man based on his finances and interest in child rearing. They did not have strong sexual chemistry and in fact did not have sex very often, however she prioritized what she needed and found it. She was not particularly attractive but she was a committed and excellent parent, so both were satisfied without an active sex life. It just was not a priority for either.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:55 AM   #22
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Regarding beach houses If you're a millionaire you can buy a beach house almost anywhere you like. You may not be able to buy a specific house but there will be something available for you in almost any market. If you're of more modest means the Jersey Shore may be all you can afford. If you have even lesser means a box in an alley in Paterson have to suffice as your castle. Likewise if you're a tall, rich, good looking guy you'll likely be able to date any type of girl you fancy. If you're just average some types will be out of your league, and, if you're the box dweller your romantic options will be very limited. My basic point is just that people would be much happier if they face reality and not be unreasonable.

If you only make 30K a year you wouldn't shop for a million dollar beach house. Likewise, if you're not good looking and/or rich and/or otherwise superlative its foolish to think that you'll be able to land an exceptional mate.
I don't totally disagree with you--just mostly

My fundamental disagreement is that what you are describing suggests that there is a fairly clear ranking of desirability, which I think is generally not the case. Or to use your metaphor, not everyone wants a beach house, some would rather have a cabin in the woods or a ski chalet, and there are a few who can think of nothing more perfect than a tent small enough they can carry it in their hiking pack.

I mean, just looking at my closest friends, for the most part nobody's wife overly appeals to any of the other guys. There are two of my friends who have overlapping tastes, and that made some friction in younger years, but the rest...all went our own ways.

Now, I do agree that it doesn't hurt a guys choices if he happens to be tall, handsome, successful in his field, and wealthy. But I think that more than anything it changes the women who think they would match up with him well more than the number of women he really has to choose from. Which, depending on what he likes, may or may not be a good thing. To put it another way, if what he really wants is a luxurious beach house, he can pick and choose more--but if what he really wants is a rustic hunting cabin he might have a hard time convincing people that he is serious.

Of course, a lot of people do like beach houses. I'm just glad that I don't.
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:06 AM   #23
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For me it's all about what I can't live without and compromising on the rest. I believe people should know what they MUST have from their partner and relationship in order to keep them happy and satisified, and then being willing to compromise on the rest.

Thus, while looks do matter to me, I am always willing to "compromise" and date someone who may not be the best looking dude as long as I find him attractive. Yet when it comes to a man's physical size/weight, I am not really willing to compromise on this anymore because I'm not sexually satisified or happy unless my partner has some chub on him. Am I being picky here and leaving out alot of great, hot, wealthy, sweet, compasionate guys? Yes. But, I have learned from like expierence that fat is not something I can live without and still be happy and satisfied in my relationship - so no compromises there.

Also, in regards to people bringing equal things to the table: I have often noticed that in many relationships, women tend to bring more to the table then men in regards to looks, education, job/financial security - they are more likely to have the "total package" than their man. As a Black female with my Master's degree at the age of24; I can tell you that most of my Master-degree-having, good looking friends with well-paying jobs are either single or dating men that do not bring an equal level of the aforementioned attributes to the table. While many of these women do have a list of what they want ideally in a man - and that list mostly consists of a man who brings as much to the relationship as she does - few can find it and they often have to compromise (or settle in some cases), especially if they want to get married. These women often have to place more importance on a man's personality and other similar attributes while "ignoring/overlooking" the other things he lacks - things that are on their wish list. But, I think alot of this has to do with the FACT (as in statistics can back me up here) that overall, Black men just don't have their sh!t together as well as Black women do in regards to having college degrees, gainful/secure employment and so forth. Because of this, Black men can have their pick of women and be HIGHLY demanding whereas Black women cannot.
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Old 08-21-2009, 07:41 AM   #24
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[...]But, I think alot of this has to do with the FACT (as in statistics can back me up here) that overall, Black men just don't have their sh!t together as well as Black women do in regards to having college degrees, gainful/secure employment and so forth. Because of this, Black men can have their pick of women and be HIGHLY demanding whereas Black women cannot.
Sidestepping the whole color thing (because I'm too white to make sweeping statements about black dudes and their sh!t being together or not), and generalising to just men and women:

Any woman who thinks she's worth more than a guy whose sh!t is not together can say no when they get asked on dates or whatever. It's dating, not "the wealth of nations". The fact that women have a lot to offer doesn't make men buyers who can therefore demand stuff. If free market economy is the reason these women are selling themselves short, they're not worth a degree, because they're not thinking.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:12 AM   #25
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Because of this, Black men can have their pick of women and be HIGHLY demanding whereas Black women cannot.
I don't understand this, at all. No man can have his pick of women, if the women are choosy and demanding themselves. Education is important to me as well, although I don't consider it the be-all-to-end-all that I once did. I know one too many well-educated idiots.

But I will say that as an educated, reasonably successful woman, I probably wouldn't haved considered seriously dating someone who wasn't equally intelligent and articulate, and I wouldn't have given any consideration at all to someone who couldn't hold a job. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems that you are saying that women just can't afford to be as choosy. I disagree. I wouldn't care if there was 1 eligible man for every 1000 women. I'd rather spend the rest of my life alone than support someone else, far less be with someone who didn't meet even a minimum criteria by any reasonable standard.

ETA: Like Frankman, I won't even touch on the other elements of your post. I disagree with many of your underlying assumptions, but ... well. I'm not going there.

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