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Old 09-01-2009, 07:34 AM   #26
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But isn't that the argument against homosexuality as being 'nature' since there is no evolutionary advantage to being gay (since gay people can't reproduce, and nature/biology isn't smart enough to know about surrogates and adoption and all the other ways that gays can become parents)?

One reason I'm not so interested in the nature/nuture debate is because for things like gayness and fatness, the search for a genetic cause seems to be rooted in an idea of 'cure' that I don't want to take.
Well, being gay could be evolutionary as a means of population control. I don't think this is the case but it could be. Also, if we are talking about early humans, those who were gay probably would reproduce anyway. One controvercial theory suggests that unsuccessful males would 'rape' females to pass one thier genes. Early gay men may well have still had sex with women as a means of stating hierarchy. I'm not sure sexuality had the same emotional meaning for early wo(man) as it does now.
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:08 AM   #27
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I'm not totally convinced fetishes are all nurture.
many of them can't be nature - the example me and james discussed being a latex fetish. you probably won't see a latex bodysuit when you're a kid, but you can become attracted to the properties: shiny, smooth, balloonlike surface - and apply those similarities to a woman later. how could like, the violet beauregarde fetish, be nature?
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:59 PM   #28
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It strikes me that if gay people are held to be "that way" by nature--and I'm not claiming for or against, either way--the logic dictates that straight people are also that way "by nature." How convenient for homophobes, to be able to claim that "nature" (read, "God") made them as they are.

What do we mean when we say "nature" and "nurture" anyway? What are we haggling over?

I feel we should all be able to choose as we choose, openly and freely, without having to be oppressed for it, so long as we're respectful of the social contract. Meanwhile, I refuse to agree that I or anyone should have to hide such practices as your run-o-the-mill, non-sociopathic individual practices. The line for me is drawn at exploitation and abuses of power. Sexual acts between equally consenting, equally empowered adults is okie dokie, no matter if it's nature or nurture.
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Old 09-06-2009, 07:43 PM   #29
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many of them can't be nature - the example me and james discussed being a latex fetish. you probably won't see a latex bodysuit when you're a kid, but you can become attracted to the properties: shiny, smooth, balloonlike surface - and apply those similarities to a woman later. how could like, the violet beauregarde fetish, be nature?
Yeah, good point. You win for now.
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