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Old 09-03-2009, 09:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Mies View Post
I did read the rules first.

I wasn't off topic. I wasn't being derogatory. I was disagreeing with her on the relevance of the content of her topic. Many women openly post about their sexual escapades on these very boards. How often are they met with "You are an amoral slut for doing that. Sleeping around is something that only men are allowed to do"? Katherine is only a couple of years older than I am, so I can also remember a time when that might have happened. I don't see it happening now, do you?
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I never said that you were boring. I thought that the topic was interesting enough to offer my take on the issue; others have different opinions. I'm fine with that. Why aren't you?
I'm confused Mies....I didn't realize that you were actually a woman. Katherine wanted to discuss the experiences of women. The only opinion you seem to have about the experiences of women is that Katherine is lying or being dramatic or just incorrect....how would you know??
She shared her own experiences- who are you to come in and say that it didn't happen????

Oh and yeah, people do judge women based upon their sexual preferences, experiences and behaviors. I know that from being a woman in our society.

Share your OWN experiences and stop trying to discount or debate the experiences of others.

Yeah, yeah, YOU haven't heard anyone being called XYZ lately....could that be because you're a man??
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:06 AM   #27
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Mies, you may not see it as often as we do, but I assure you that this is ABSOLUTELY still an issue that we face. I know you've been around to see major progress in society in terms of women's rights and status, so in comparison to what you've witnessed before it may seem small; however, we are FAR from being equal on this matter. More later, when I'm not supposed to be working >_>
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:30 AM   #28
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i have to agree with that to some extent. in some ways i think when you look at very young girls we have even gone backwards in some ways. but Mies has a point though. i think more of it is self imposed than imposed by men. sure, there are some men who try to get away with it but its usually the type who are insecure and maladjusted anyway and would use anything to try and be superior to anyone they could. if they felt their position was secure in the company of men they wouldn't care either way what women did or did not do, especially women they weren't involved with. they are the type that may as well wear a kkk hood.

but i still see more of it among women in general. even when i was young that was true. it was generally the "why is he dating her she is such a slut" "why is she wearing that" " she is such a whore". i have hardly ever come across men saying those things. those kinds of guys are very few and far between and not not worth anyone's consideration. they should be left in the dust where they belong.

i still wonder why women give men like that so much power over them to determine how they feel about themselves even though intellectually they know they shouldn't. would a double standard really matter so much in todays world if we as women did not didn't adhere to it? what if we didn't experience the world in ways where we thought we were powerless? what if we just took and used the powere we did have? would the double standard matter at all? why do we feel so ineffectual and powerless in its face to begin with--even when we are not?

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Old 09-03-2009, 11:45 AM   #29
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Mies' posts offer up a point of view that is valid, however at this point they are disruptive, and I'd like to remind non-bbw posters who participate here to not be disruptive.

That said, yes advancements have been made regarding sexual freedoms for women, and in some ways young women today do have choices that they wouldn't have forty years ago, but make no mistake, those double standards are far from over.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:51 AM   #30
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[QUOTE=olwen;1268390]Mies' posts offer up a point of view that is valid, however at this point they are disruptive, and I'd like to remind non-bbw posters who participate here to not be disruptive.[QUOTE]

Thank you. Sorry for my part in sending this thread off track.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:54 PM   #31
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I did read the rules first.

I wasn't off topic. I wasn't being derogatory. I was disagreeing with her on the relevance of the content of her topic. Many women openly post about their sexual escapades on these very boards. How often are they met with "You are an amoral slut for doing that. Sleeping around is something that only men are allowed to do"? Katherine is only a couple of years older than I am, so I can also remember a time when that might have happened. I don't see it happening now, do you?
I took offense to you comment about Katherine's topics being stale and some sort of agenda..You could have answered the question and left the commentary off and it would have been fine..

I grew up in the '70 and the same thing that was said back then about "loose" women is being said today..Maybe not as vocal but it is still there..Young women talk about other young women being sluts because they have slept with X amount of men..It is still happening 30-40 years later so it has not changed much..The best part of the women's sexual revolution is the fact we were are finally able to stand up and say we want to be satisfied just like the men and we deserved to be satisfied..We want sex to be just as enjoyable to us as it is to the men and if that meant sleeping with more then 2 guys during our life time so be it! Instead we get the words slut and easy banded about..Other women call us sluts and men tell their friends which women are easy..
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:23 PM   #32
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I took offense to you comment about Katherine's topics being stale and some sort of agenda..You could have answered the question and left the commentary off and it would have been fine..

I grew up in the '70 and the same thing that was said back then about "loose" women is being said today..Maybe not as vocal but it is still there..Young women talk about other young women being sluts because they have slept with X amount of men..It is still happening 30-40 years later so it has not changed much..The best part of the women's sexual revolution is the fact we were are finally able to stand up and say we want to be satisfied just like the men and we deserved to be satisfied..We want sex to be just as enjoyable to us as it is to the men and if that meant sleeping with more then 2 guys during our life time so be it! Instead we get the words slut and easy banded about..Other women call us sluts and men tell their friends which women are easy..

the statistics for us when it comes to real sexual liberation isn't all that much different if you take out the necessities of divorce etc.. i sometimes think this so called modern sexual liberation is more of an action of necessity than anything else. its my opinion that quite a few women are more sexually available because they think they have to be and there is a lot of pressure to be that way. i think thats especially true for young women without fathers who crave positive male attention. is an orgasm enough if i leaves you feeling stupid or used afterwards?

americans talk a good talk but they aren't very sexually liberated at all. i kind of believe its just as fake as club only lesbians who pretend to be attracted to other women because it gets them male attention without regard for women who are truly lesbians. i'm not sure that this sort of sexual liberation is good thing. it left a nasty taste in the mouths of people who participated in the 60s and the 70s. the high drug use was not only about an idea of freedom. that was just a masquerade for the same thing it has always been about--a way to escape painful experiences. no one feels that happy about being used. its probably why everything got so conservative on the whole in the 80s because wild sexual abandon with unevolved people is not necessarily all that its cracked up to be what with the broken hearts and STDs. i think we are facing the same problems that result now in the rise in impotence and depression. sex sometimes seems to be just another battleground and a way to try to control,accuse and critisize each other instead of working together so that both people can get the best from it. i think there were always plenty of orgasms to be had before all of this by people who actually cared for each other and were honest with each other. i'm not sure that just having more effective sex without real understanding is going to solve much. we'll just go back to our corners as we do now when the match is over.

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Old 09-03-2009, 03:41 PM   #33
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*snipped*That said, yes advancements have been made regarding sexual freedoms for women, and in some ways young women today do have choices that they wouldn't have forty years ago, but make no mistake, those double standards are far from over.
Do you think the double standards will ever be over? (I am asking this of everyone participating here, not just you Olwen...I quoted you because you broke it down so plainly.) And what do we (human beings we, not just women) need to do to kill off the double standards?
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:51 PM   #34
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Do you think the double standards will ever be over? (I am asking this of everyone participating here, not just you Olwen...I quoted you because you broke it down so plainly.) And what do we (human beings we, not just women) need to do to kill off the double standards?
Behave differently- and teach our children differently
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:29 PM   #35
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Just a reminder that this forum is for the constructive, size-positive discussion of BBW issues, not for criticizing or questioning such issues; therefore, some posts have been removed, but quotes left as a reference.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:21 PM   #36
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I think that the dynamics of this thread has been very interesting. I asked if the women on this forum about their thoughts as to whether "the double standard of sexual conduct" was still an influence. I would like to understand why a man had to judge whether the topic was relevant to women - as if that were not enough he had to insult me for raising it in a discussion. He upped the ante some by inferring that I had an agenda. I do have an agenda since I am considering doing a Ph.D and to have raised the question in this forum was to find out if it resonated with anyone. I think at some level this man felt threatened by the question and women discussing the question. I think that some men are threatened by intelligent women, and I also think that some women feel this maternal need to protect men from thoughtful discussions with women. If the BBW Forum is strictly for light commentary where we can discuss the thrills of belly rubbing for the titillation of men then you can count me out. Perhaps Dimensions has evolved beyond the orginal plan of the creator but here it is. Maybe we no longer live in a world where we remain silent while we are the fodder for someone else's fantasies.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:41 PM   #37
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Katherine, you post these "provocative" questions with amazing regularity, trying to make some sort of point or continue an agenda, but there is a certain staleness to them: they ask questions that might best have been asked back in the 70's and are less relevant today. Things have changed.

Look at the acceptance of gays in our culture. Sure, some people are never going to be OK with that, but so what? Unlike in previous times, if you're not related to them, you can pretty much write them off and move on. Why do you expect to change everyone? Isn't it enough to be free to do what you want? Whose opinion do you treasure more than your own?

Dude, there's venom dripping from your words. She's. Just. Posting. Some. Questions. Like anyone else, she's allowed to do that. What do you have against it? I don't see you taking aim at other posters.

Maybe we should each just run what we post by you... You know: an arbiter of timeliness, cool, and urbanity... that's you.

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Old 09-03-2009, 08:49 PM   #38
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Katherine, something in your approach to Mie's post makes me cringe. I saw nothing in his comments to warrant such bile, but maybe I just failed to see it. It comes off as a double-standard for this thread, to me.

I believe that to gain some kinds of power, women have sacrificed the kinds of power that we possessed in earlier times. In some ways, it is a positive trade-off, but not entirely. For example, in recasting history to illuminate real inequity and real pain, I believe we have cast aside some of our predecessors' greatest accomplishments. Not every woman in history was treated as or felt like a slave; many demonstrated impressive leadership, in both (traditionally) masculine and feminine roles. Many worked the system to reach their goals, and were genuinely happy. Do we really honor our grandmothers by dismissing their power and casting them as victims in our narrative?

As was stated, an expectation of chastity may limit choices, but it also offers protection I fear many young women suffer from a lack of. Now that most women (as well as men) are taught to have sex "when you are ready", I think it makes it more difficult for women to say no when we are not. It is not supposed to work that way, but it does. It also makes it more difficult for boys, who are treated as if something is wrong with them if they choose not to be sexually active at a fairly young age.

Both women and men are losing out with the present standard--having one choice seems to make another cease to be an option. And I believe it is causing negative effects to self esteem, health, and families.

I believe the double standard doesn't exist to the degree it used to, but our new standard is seriously lacking, too. I would prefer a standard of responsibility in sexuality, one acknowledging it is much more than a pleasant activity. The consequences will always fall more heavily on women due to biology, unless society compels men to be responsible for their actions. Just now, it does not.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:26 PM   #39
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Katherine, something in your approach to Mie's post makes me cringe. I saw nothing in his comments to warrant such bile, but maybe I just failed to see it. It comes off as a double-standard for this thread, to me.

I believe that to gain some kinds of power, women have sacrificed the kinds of power that we possessed in earlier times. In some ways, it is a positive trade-off, but not entirely. For example, in recasting history to illuminate real inequity and real pain, I believe we have cast aside some of our predecessors' greatest accomplishments. Not every woman in history was treated as or felt like a slave; many demonstrated impressive leadership, in both (traditionally) masculine and feminine roles. Many worked the system to reach their goals, and were genuinely happy. Do we really honor our grandmothers by dismissing their power and casting them as victims in our narrative?


As was stated, an expectation of chastity may limit choices, but it also offers protection I fear many young women suffer from a lack of. Now that most women (as well as men) are taught to have sex "when you are ready", I think it makes it more difficult for women to say no when we are not. It is not supposed to work that way, but it does. It also makes it more difficult for boys, who are treated as if something is wrong with them if they choose not to be sexually active at a fairly young age.

Both women and men are losing out with the present standard--having one choice seems to make another cease to be an option. And I believe it is causing negative effects to self esteem, health, and families.

I believe the double standard doesn't exist to the degree it used to, but our new standard is seriously lacking, too. I would prefer a standard of responsibility in sexuality, one acknowledging it is much more than a pleasant activity. The consequences will always fall more heavily on women due to biology, unless society compels men to be responsible for their actions. Just now, it does not.
Mies could not address my question without accusing me of being, provocative, demeaning my questions as stale and not reflective of life as we know it. I felt that he was telling my indirectly to shut up, not be provocative while posting questions that he found uninteresting in a BBW forum. I am not going off Dims because some man thanks that I am irrelevant, uninteresting and provocative. I am not going off Dims, Keb, because you think that I am dripping of "bile." I have as much right to post here as you do.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:45 PM   #40
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Mies could not address my question without accusing me of being, provocative, demeaning my questions as stale and not reflective of life as we know it. I felt that he was telling my indirectly to shut up, not be provocative while posting questions that he found uninteresting in a BBW forum. I am not going off Dims because some man thanks that I am irrelevant, uninteresting and provocative. I am not going off Dims, Keb, because you think that I am dripping of "bile." I have as much right to post here as you do.
I never asked you to go anyplace. I think it is a very interesting question and I was enjoying the debate quite a bit, save for that. But Hyde Park is history.

It was your words, not you, that struck me as so angry and felt out of proportion to the offense. As you are an intelligent woman with a clearly inquisitive mind and a desire to learn, I did not expect you to react in that manner to someone questioning your logic; it seems to me to defeat the purpose to silence anyone, even with offensive or stupid points of view, if you want to understand other people's experiences.

It is your thread, I suppose.
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Old 09-03-2009, 10:44 PM   #41
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The double standard exists, this much we have ascertained. It is alive and well in this modern age, this much we acknowledge. Education in my book is what will change it or at least amend it but that will take generations of unlearning and accepting the changes a little at a time.

From my experiences though the women and girls tend to treat each other much more harshly than the men do in reference to the double standard.
I am a very sexually open person. I am also very nonjudgmental, and in my own way knowledgeable on the topic, having studied and done a lot of book research on the topic of human sexuality over the years.
As such, I had the joy of being the sexual educator of a family of 2 boys and one girl whose parents really didn't feel comfortable teaching it to their children. The boys were regularly directed to me for all manner of questions about what it was, how it felt and the list continued ad infinitum. Since they were the eldest in the family I saw no need to question it and planned on using exactly the same teaching for the girl when I inevitably expected her to also be sent to me for these answers.

The boys got chapter and verse about just exactly COULD produce babies and I held nothing back in reference to the act itself. Age adjusted for the answers of course, the older they were the more information they got. But they were let know in no uncertain terms that if those parts ever got together what the consequences could be and to use common sense about it. I taught preparedness and use of protection in any and all circumstances, not to trust her to be on the pill, but to take responsibility for their own protection, and also that protection of any sort other than abstinence was not always perfect. I also taught them the economics of what a night of passion could entail protected or not. I asked regularly during these conversations if they could support a family on what they earned. I taught them to value the experiences but to value higher the gaining of experience with a life partner over a one night stand. I taught quality over quantity and how much more fulfilling emotional investments of a LTR were over casual encounters. I gave them food for thought about the topics brought before me. I even referenced the points of judgment on appearance in the context that just because a girl acts a certain way or dresses a certain way that doesn't give you the right to treat her as less than anything short of the same respect you would give any other girl who didn't. The word reference of the word slut was decidedly and immediately a cause to take the children to task and used as a learning tool about respect for people in general and more specifically females. It wasn't used nor was it tolerated if it slipped by either gender.

I planned on using exactly the same mental script for the girl when she would come to me with her questions with only pronoun changes. The parents thought my teaching was perfect for the boys, however they did not like my liberal script where their daughter was concerned. She was to be taught abstinence at all costs. Teaching protection condoned the act in their estimation and promoted the behaviour. I asked them if that was the way they were taught? Then I asked how well it worked? The mother of these children was pregnant before her graduation BTW. Regardless of the logic I presented to them they refused to be swayed. Needless to say I did not have a part in her education. Her rebuttal to me was "It's different when it's YOUR daughter."

Sexuality is a value to be taught when teaching children about their bodies, and the double standard is unfortunately taught out of fear, shame and, arrogance, from the cradle. It won't get better until we can start teaching our children that they are sexual beings and to teach respect of each other sexually, as well as to stop thinking of sex as a four letter word and a topic of shame,and discomfort to be avoided lest we invoke curiosity. We also need to start teaching human sexuality from a less gender biased slant and start teaching it from a humanistic point of view. But even then it will still take generations to see any result and unfortunately, I don't see that happening within my lifetime.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by rollhandler View Post
The double standard exists, this much we have ascertained. It is alive and well in this modern age, this much we acknowledge. Education in my book is what will change it or at least amend it but that will take generations of unlearning and accepting the changes a little at a time.

From my experiences though the women and girls tend to treat each other much more harshly than the men do in reference to the double standard.
I am a very sexually open person. I am also very nonjudgmental, and in my own way knowledgeable on the topic, having studied and done a lot of book research on the topic of human sexuality over the years.
As such, I had the joy of being the sexual educator of a family of 2 boys and one girl whose parents really didn't feel comfortable teaching it to their children. The boys were regularly directed to me for all manner of questions about what it was, how it felt and the list continued ad infinitum. Since they were the eldest in the family I saw no need to question it and planned on using exactly the same teaching for the girl when I inevitably expected her to also be sent to me for these answers.

The boys got chapter and verse about just exactly COULD produce babies and I held nothing back in reference to the act itself. Age adjusted for the answers of course, the older they were the more information they got. But they were let know in no uncertain terms that if those parts ever got together what the consequences could be and to use common sense about it. I taught preparedness and use of protection in any and all circumstances, not to trust her to be on the pill, but to take responsibility for their own protection, and also that protection of any sort other than abstinence was not always perfect. I also taught them the economics of what a night of passion could entail protected or not. I asked regularly during these conversations if they could support a family on what they earned. I taught them to value the experiences but to value higher the gaining of experience with a life partner over a one night stand. I taught quality over quantity and how much more fulfilling emotional investments of a LTR were over casual encounters. I gave them food for thought about the topics brought before me. I even referenced the points of judgment on appearance in the context that just because a girl acts a certain way or dresses a certain way that doesn't give you the right to treat her as less than anything short of the same respect you would give any other girl who didn't. The word reference of the word slut was decidedly and immediately a cause to take the children to task and used as a learning tool about respect for people in general and more specifically females. It wasn't used nor was it tolerated if it slipped by either gender.

I planned on using exactly the same mental script for the girl when she would come to me with her questions with only pronoun changes. The parents thought my teaching was perfect for the boys, however they did not like my liberal script where their daughter was concerned. She was to be taught abstinence at all costs. Teaching protection condoned the act in their estimation and promoted the behaviour. I asked them if that was the way they were taught? Then I asked how well it worked? The mother of these children was pregnant before her graduation BTW. Regardless of the logic I presented to them they refused to be swayed. Needless to say I did not have a part in her education. Her rebuttal to me was "It's different when it's YOUR daughter."

Sexuality is a value to be taught when teaching children about their bodies, and the double standard is unfortunately taught out of fear, shame and, arrogance, from the cradle. It won't get better until we can start teaching our children that they are sexual beings and to teach respect of each other sexually, as well as to stop thinking of sex as a four letter word and a topic of shame,and discomfort to be avoided lest we invoke curiosity. We also need to start teaching human sexuality from a less gender biased slant and start teaching it from a humanistic point of view. But even then it will still take generations to see any result and unfortunately, I don't see that happening within my lifetime.
Rollhandler
I appreciated your thoughtful response. Girls pay dearly for the doublestandard in that they experience such shame about their own impulses.
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:05 AM   #43
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I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but I had a conversation with a coworker today that I think is relevant. I work with a beautiful (but unfortunately skinny) young lawyer. She just bought a new house and was joking that what she needed was a part-time husband who would help with the home improvement projects and perhaps more and then go home. She is actively participating in stereotypically male water-cooler banter and no one thinks any the less of her.

This coworker is not an anomaly. In the offices I've worked in (in New Jersey and California) many women have openly talked about and even flaunted their sexuality with no deleterious effect. Indeed in the New Jersey office I worked with an attorney (a BBW and a lesbian) who was about as open with her sexuality as its possible to get -- news of her latest escapades were eagerly awaited every Monday morning.

Neither of these co-workers have suffered for being open about their sexuality. Both are well respected and well liked. While professional offices in liberal states are obviously not representative of society as a whole I think my experiences show there are at least some area's where the sexual double standard is no more.

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Old 09-04-2009, 04:57 AM   #44
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I'd have to agree that a double standard exists, but my thoughts take a different twist. I don't have time this morning to delve deeply into the conversation, but I just want to throw this general thought out there:

The real shame is that in trying to change the double standard, there's an encouragement for women to behave as badly as the men traditionally have, instead of encouraging men to live up to the standards that women were always supposed to. Sexuality is beautiful, not shameful. But on both sides of the equation, IMHO, it really should be reserved for marriage / committed relationships where the emotional connection is part of the experience.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:24 AM   #45
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I'd have to agree that a double standard exists, but my thoughts take a different twist. I don't have time this morning to delve deeply into the conversation, but I just want to throw this general thought out there:

The real shame is that in trying to change the double standard, there's an encouragement for women to behave as badly as the men traditionally have, instead of encouraging men to live up to the standards that women were always supposed to. Sexuality is beautiful, not shameful. But on both sides of the equation, IMHO, it really should be reserved for marriage / committed relationships where the emotional connection is part of the experience.
But not everyone feels that way. Me having sex outside of marriage does not automatically make me a bad person and in my opinion isn't anything to be ashamed of.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:40 AM   #46
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Do you think the double standards will ever be over? (I am asking this of everyone participating here, not just you Olwen...I quoted you because you broke it down so plainly.) And what do we (human beings we, not just women) need to do to kill off the double standards?
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Behave differently- and teach our children differently
What Greenie said. But also, I think that as long as puritanical shame about our bodies is present it will be difficult to get rid of that double standard. We need to do away with the idea that women's bodies are supposed to remain pure, or that this purity gets sullied by a man's touch except within the confines of marriage. This madonna/whore business is just ridiculous. That we have to guard our sexuality because we are seen as too weak or incapable of making sexual decisions is a travesty. That men are taught to have some kind of ownership or paternalistic feelings over women's bodies is also a travesty. These kinds of attitudes just have to go.

My mother thinks monogamy is an unachievable standard because other mammals in the animal kingdom are in fact promiscuous. So she feels the expectation to be monogamous is the root of a lot of problems.....this then makes me wonder how different our sexual/relationship expectations would be if we lived to be 200 years old. That would give new meaning to the words "Till death do us part."
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:53 AM   #47
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But not everyone feels that way. Me having sex outside of marriage does not automatically make me a bad person and in my opinion isn't anything to be ashamed of.
I agree. I think we are socially conditioned to belive that sex outside marrage is wrong. I can't think of any reason why it should be; For male or females. I have always enjoyed sex more when i have been really attracted to someone, (whether they are married or not)..but then i guess that makes sense. Hmmm...i don't know the history of this but i'm sure some pope or other decided sex outside marrage was wrong to save money on child benifits or something like that..
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:59 AM   #48
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Hmmm...i don't know the history of this but i'm sure some pope or other decided sex outside marrage was wrong to save money on child benifits or something like that..
Or some man, way back in the day in the times of the scarlett (sp?) letter.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:04 AM   #49
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I'd have to agree that a double standard exists, but my thoughts take a different twist. I don't have time this morning to delve deeply into the conversation, but I just want to throw this general thought out there:

The real shame is that in trying to change the double standard, there's an encouragement for women to behave as badly as the men traditionally have, instead of encouraging men to live up to the standards that women were always supposed to. Sexuality is beautiful, not shameful. But on both sides of the equation, IMHO, it really should be reserved for marriage / committed relationships where the emotional connection is part of the experience.
For the most part, I agree with how you feel. It's something that's worked for my partnership. I'm not a woman that can have sexual experiences without any emotional connection. However, I have friends that can. I don't look down on them or think any less of them because they choose to have as much sex as I am, but with many partners.

I think that's the thing that chaps my (chubby) hide. The judgement that we women place on each other can really stifle our freedom and in some ways, I'd say personal development. Sometimes people arrive at the same conclusions via vastly different routes. Why isn't that okay? Why can't women explore who they are and what they really want without criticism from the peanut gallery?

As a side, I was talking to my aunt and my Mother about this. They both feel men and women can be "whores"; women can explore their sexuality but when children result because of it...that's where the problem arises, then it's not as simple as getting a feel for who you are. It's maybe apart of a bigger problem underneath it all; because with each encounter the woman (or in some cases, the girl child) is looking for something--love perhaps. Have you noticed that the age for having children is getting younger and younger? I mean, to me it's not just about SES or race anymore. We need to look a little closer. Children learn to love by example and they aren't being shown the way. There's a consequence for having sex and unfortunately it has fallen and probably will always fall on/more harshly on the woman.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:13 AM   #50
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I agree. I think we are socially conditioned to belive that sex outside marrage is wrong. I can't think of any reason why it should be; For male or females. I have always enjoyed sex more when i have been really attracted to someone, (whether they are married or not)..but then i guess that makes sense. Hmmm...i don't know the history of this but i'm sure some pope or other decided sex outside marrage was wrong to save money on child benifits or something like that..
To me, it comes down to responsibility. Since I believe abortion is wrong except as self defense and should be as rare as possible, sex that could even remotely create a child cannot, in my mind, be responsible without reasonable provisions made by both parents for that potential person. No birth control is 100% perfect, and I believe people have a right to know and be loved by both bioloical parents, and to see them love each other, too. World is not perfect, and stuff occurs to make my ideal unattainable--but we can decide to risk our kids lives and futures or not to.

My logic is probably not perfect, but it is why I make my decisions about sex. It is also not sexist, since I expect men and women alike to respect each other and their potential children.
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