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Old 09-04-2009, 10:47 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mergirl View Post
I agree. I think we are socially conditioned to belive that sex outside marrage is wrong. I can't think of any reason why it should be; For male or females. I have always enjoyed sex more when i have been really attracted to someone, (whether they are married or not)..but then i guess that makes sense. Hmmm...i don't know the history of this but i'm sure some pope or other decided sex outside marrage was wrong to save money on child benifits or something like that..

I think monogamy was started to protect wealthy men from raising and giving their wealth to say the stable helps child..I found the following in an article I was reading and thought it says a lot..

monogamy may have its roots in the control of female sexuality so that men could keep track of their lineage, thus historically linking monogamy with women's oppression throughout human history. And in a final huge ironic twist, the modern stereotype requires that women have to nail men down and make them commit to monogamy!

I know in Roman times polygamy was very much practiced and not just between men and women but also men and men,women and women..JMO
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:52 AM   #52
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To me, it comes down to responsibility. Since I believe abortion is wrong except as self defense and should be as rare as possible, sex that could even remotely create a child cannot, in my mind, be responsible without reasonable provisions made by both parents for that potential person. No birth control is 100% perfect, and I believe people have a right to know and be loved by both bioloical parents, and to see them love each other, too. World is not perfect, and stuff occurs to make my ideal unattainable--but we can decide to risk our kids lives and futures or not to.

My logic is probably not perfect, but it is why I make my decisions about sex. It is also not sexist, since I expect men and women alike to respect each other and their potential children.

Even children born in to a marriage are not 100% safe from being abandoned by a parent when said parent decides to leave the marriage or even feel abandoned when 1 of the parents die..There are a lot of children raised in single parent homes that get lots of love and grow up to be model citizens..
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:36 PM   #53
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I know in Roman times polygamy was very much practiced and not just between men and women but also men and men,women and women..JMO
I'm pretty positive that in roman law you could marry only one person. Of course in many societies unofficial relationships were common and accepted, especially amongst the wealthy where marriage was often more about alliances between families than about love, lust, or even being able to stand each other, but that is a whole different matter.

Also the romans were quite against homosexual relations between men (I forget what the military punishment for it was, but it was quite horrific, and their name for a homosexual male was considered to be a grave insult)

However there were other societies in ancient times with very different views on these things, of course.
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:01 PM   #54
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I think my experiences show there are at least some area's where the sexual double standard is no more.
While all those individual examples ( not to the women living the lives, but, in terms of how society at large reacts ) are fine and dandy...and necessary, I would not be closing any book on the bad old double standard. These women do not live in a bubble. Fucking the men you want to fuck does not mean jack in terms of how the sexual double standard operates in our society. The sexism is still there...glaring. There are a million subtle ways that this sexism is expressed, no matter how it looks on the surface.

Again..I am happy to see any woman trying to live her life how she...she...sees fit. I personally feel that the male model AND the female model are extremely ridiculous and suffocating. Sexuality, as long as it is held in such strangleholds....the ' typical ' male response/allowances....or the ' typical ' female upholding of virtues, attached to religious and male decided rules of the road....it does not stand a chance.

The double standard does not just play out...or not play out... when the body parts are colliding. The fallout happened long before that, and continues to seep into society as a whole, when it comes time to punish and to deny, and assign appropriate behaviors.
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:03 PM   #55
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I do think there still is a double standard. For example, promiscuity in men still seems to be considered to be a positive manly trait and promiscuous men are called things like studs or womanizers. I personally consider promiscuous men to be sluts and whores.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:01 PM   #56
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While all those individual examples ( not to the women living the lives, but, in terms of how society at large reacts ) are fine and dandy...and necessary, I would not be closing any book on the bad old double standard. These women do not live in a bubble. Fucking the men you want to fuck does not mean jack in terms of how the sexual double standard operates in our society. The sexism is still there...glaring. There are a million subtle ways that this sexism is expressed, no matter how it looks on the surface.

Again..I am happy to see any woman trying to live her life how she...she...sees fit. I personally feel that the male model AND the female model are extremely ridiculous and suffocating. Sexuality, as long as it is held in such strangleholds....the ' typical ' male response/allowances....or the ' typical ' female upholding of virtues, attached to religious and male decided rules of the road....it does not stand a chance.

The double standard does not just play out...or not play out... when the body parts are colliding. The fallout happened long before that, and continues to seep into society as a whole, when it comes time to punish and to deny, and assign appropriate behaviors.

I am so enjoying this "stale" conversation. You expressed it perfectly in that the social sexual conditioning of both men and women can be stifling and the fall out permeates to other areas of life. I am trying to understand the necessity to view sex within moral confines, what was it about the sexual act itself that religions felt they needed to codify the conditions. My guess is that there is something about the sexual act under certain circumstances that contributes to transcendence which is often the goal of religious ritual.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:23 PM   #57
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I do think there still is a double standard. For example, promiscuity in men still seems to be considered to be a positive manly trait and promiscuous men are called things like studs or womanizers. [...]
I know I'm posting in the BBW thread, and I'm well aware of the dangers in asking this, but:

Is the bolded bit in the quote still true?

I've seen it being brought up in so many arguments, but personally, I don't know anyone that really thinks promiscuity for promiscuity's sake in men is a good thing. And there's a whole bunch of you here who don't think that's how it should be. Is there some silent majority somewhere? (I am talking about North America, Europe and Oceania here, there's all kinds of silly shit going on in Africa and certain (middle) Eastern countries, but I believe that's a whole different problem)

I think that what is said in previous posts; about both stigma's being stifling, the removal of the taboo that rests on sexuality, that's where IMHO the points of interest are.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:48 PM   #58
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It almost doesn't matter if promiscuity for promiscuity's sake is said to be a great thing for men. Most people do not say, " yes, let's teach our boys to fuck everything that moves, for this is a good thing ". The problem has come from the silence...and comes from the sly comments over how big a stud a boy/man might be. So, yes...it has become a positive, manly, trait...just one that is denied, with superficial comment like..." oh, that's bad ".
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:34 PM   #59
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It almost doesn't matter if promiscuity for promiscuity's sake is said to be a great thing for men. Most people do not say, " yes, let's teach our boys to fuck everything that moves, for this is a good thing ". The problem has come from the silence...and comes from the sly comments over how big a stud a boy/man might be. So, yes...it has become a positive, manly, trait...just one that is denied, with superficial comment like..." oh, that's bad ".
See, I know that such stereotypes get bandied about...but I personally, and those in my immediate family/circle of friends, don't see it as a great thing when a man is promiscuous. Not in the least. We tend to value integrity, responsibility, and honesty. So while the stereotype may exist in our culture, it doesn't exist in the people I associate with on a day-to-day basis.

OTH, I have had men online brag to me about how many women they've had sex with. One keeps telling me how he's had 27 women. When he tells me that, I don't think "ooh, what a stud," I'm thinking wow, that sucks for your kid, and I'm glad I'm not one of those women (nor am I going to be 28, thank you).

I don't realistically expect that most people are going to stick it out as long as I have on the virgin side of things in our modern culture, but I do find it more revolting than alluring to hear a man bragging about all his women. The men who are attractive in my eye are the ones who focus on one women--the one who is with them. They're the ones who are there for their kids, when/if they have them, and care about their personal imprint on the world.
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Old 09-04-2009, 06:41 PM   #60
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I wasn't going to get involved in this thread but I had a conversation with a coworker today that I think is relevant. I work with a beautiful (but unfortunately skinny) young lawyer. She just bought a new house and was joking that what she needed was a part-time husband who would help with the home improvement projects and perhaps more and then go home. She is actively participating in stereotypically male water-cooler banter and no one thinks any the less of her.

This coworker is not an anomaly. In the offices I've worked in (in New Jersey and California) many women have openly talked about and even flaunted their sexuality with no deleterious effect. Indeed in the New Jersey office I worked with an attorney (a BBW and a lesbian) who was about as open with her sexuality as its possible to get -- news of her latest escapades were eagerly awaited every Monday morning.

Neither of these co-workers have suffered for being open about their sexuality. Both are well respected and well liked. While professional offices in liberal states are obviously not representative of society as a whole I think my experiences show there are at least some area's where the sexual double standard is no more.

You worked with professionals in California and Jersey. Been to the bible belt lately? Just saying......


Far as this waiting for marriage stuff....it's a real crock of uber-shit IMO.
If someone wants to wait for marriage then good for them, but to think that decision is right for EVERYONE is unreasonable.
I want to have effed him real good, many times before I say he's all I'm with the rest of my life. Let's leave it at that.......

I tend to think that only selfish lovers, premature ejaculators or guys with small peenies might want to wait for marriage....but hey, that's just MY opinion of waiting. See how unreasonable tossing your personal opinions on other people's relationships can be?
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:00 PM   #61
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It almost doesn't matter if promiscuity for promiscuity's sake is said to be a great thing for men. Most people do not say, " yes, let's teach our boys to fuck everything that moves, for this is a good thing ". The problem has come from the silence...and comes from the sly comments over how big a stud a boy/man might be. So, yes...it has become a positive, manly, trait...just one that is denied, with superficial comment like..." oh, that's bad ".
Exactly. And between that and porn, boys and girls get the message very quickly.

As well, while people may not admit to teaching their children that whole double-standard mindset, children are very good at noticing subtleties, and they learn very well by watching. So while a parent's mouth might say one thing, their actions and offhand comments say another.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #62
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You worked with professionals in California and Jersey. Been to the bible belt lately? Just saying......


Far as this waiting for marriage stuff....it's a real crock of uber-shit IMO.
If someone wants to wait for marriage then good for them, but to think that decision is right for EVERYONE is unreasonable.
I want to have effed him real good, many times before I say he's all I'm with the rest of my life. Let's leave it at that.......

I tend to think that only selfish lovers, premature ejaculators or guys with small peenies might want to wait for marriage....but hey, that's just MY opinion of waiting. See how unreasonable tossing your personal opinions on other people's relationships can be?
Fortunately for probably everyone, I'm not dictator of the world. I don't have any desire to force anyone else to make the same choices I do, but I have sincere reasons for making them and I'm not shy about sharing them. If I didn't think they were good reasons--I wouldn't think the way I do. (And likewise, vice versa--I recognize that you do have good reasons for making your choices. I hope they serve you well and bring you happiness.) And because I think my reasons are sound, I believe other people would benefit from the same choices I'm making.

Seriously, though, if what you're doing only has the potential to hurt you and/or other consenting adults, it really isn't any of my business. I don't have to agree it's a good idea to say go ahead, enjoy, be happy with it. It stops being benign when it harms other people, and I believe that can be the case with some sexual choices--most specifically those that have the potential to create new lives.

Your choices are your own and my opinion on the subject as a whole should not be construed as an attack on your rights or your choices.

I am trying hard to be a loving person in my life, which I fail a lot at. I don't always give people the benefit of the doubt that they deserve, and I don't always notice or do things that could help other people. But I do think the most loving thing I can do for my family--present and future--is to wait until I am married to take the risk of motherhood. So in that way, having sex before marriage would be, for me, the opposite of love.

*giggles* As serious as I am, I always feel like I'm a bit ridiculous when I try to formulate my philosophical thinking into words.

Oh, I wanted to add: I'm bringing this up mainly because I think there IS a different approach to ending the double standard. We don't have to expect everyone to be promiscuous. We can expect everyone to be responsible.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:19 PM   #63
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I do think there still is a double standard. For example, promiscuity in men still seems to be considered to be a positive manly trait and promiscuous men are called things like studs or womanizers. I personally consider promiscuous men to be sluts and whores.
Just who are these people who consider sexually adventurous women sluts and whores -- I've not met them. Over the years I've gone to school with and worked with hundreds of men and women and I can honestly say that I've never encountered such a person.


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These women do not live in a bubble. Fucking the men you want to fuck does not mean jack in terms of how the sexual double standard operates in our society. The sexism is still there...glaring. There are a million subtle ways that this sexism is expressed, no matter how it looks on the surface.

....

The double standard does not just play out...or not play out... when the body parts are colliding. The fallout happened long before that, and continues to seep into society as a whole, when it comes time to punish and to deny, and assign appropriate behaviors.
I must live in a different society -- well actually I probably do since I'm a liberal atheist.

Just how exactly does your nebulous society punish and deny unchaste women. I don't think I know an adult women who has had less than 15 sex partners (one is well into three digits). The esteem or reputation of my female acquaintances in my circle has absolutely nothing to do with the number of partners they have had.

I'll concede that there are many religious and conservative groups that cling to their peculiar ideas of virtue. Such groups are unlikely to ever embrace equality. Thus I'd encourage woman who feel oppressed to seek new social groups. The days of any kind of monolithic society are long gone -- options are available. If your so called friends and neighbors are punishing you for your sexual decisions its time to kick them to the curb. In the extreme case this may require packing up the U-haul. But that's not a bad thing -- lots of the interesting women I met in San Francisco came from the fly over states.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:23 PM   #64
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There has existed in our culture and remains prevalent in other cultures "the double standard of sexual conduct" where men can address their sexual needs with impunity, and women can address their sexual needs within a committed relationship or marriage and to veer outside those contexts for women is to be judged harshly. Does the "double standard of sexual conduct" still resonate with younger women today? Do women still judge other women harshly who operate outside sexual societal norms? Do you think that fat women are perceived to be more sexual or is that a fantasy perpetrated by FAs?
I have to admit, I do adhere to certain beliefs that some might consider outdated, closed minded and immature when it comes to sexual liberty. I'm not motivated by any "woman in her place" type thinking. I guess it's more cootie fear than anything else. The thought of having a lot of partners just seems gross to me mentally. I wouldnt do it but I don't judge others harshly for making their own choice. I just hope they're being safe and all that good stuff. This feeling isn't reserved only for women though, I get cootie fever when I consider getting involved with men who sleep around. It's just not for me is all. I think it's okay to prefer what you prefer but not okay to shun or shame people who prefer something else either way, as long as it doesn't harm anyone.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:35 PM   #65
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Just who are these people who consider sexually adventurous women sluts and whores -- I've not met them. Over the years I've gone to school with and worked with hundreds of men and women and I can honestly say that I've never encountered such a person.




I must live in a different society -- well actually I probably do since I'm a liberal atheist.

Just how exactly does your nebulous society punish and deny unchaste women. I don't think I know an adult women who has had less than 15 sex partners (one is well into three digits). The esteem or reputation of my female acquaintances in my circle has absolutely nothing to do with the number of partners they have had.

I'll concede that there are many religious and conservative groups that cling to their peculiar ideas of virtue. Such groups are unlikely to ever embrace equality. Thus I'd encourage woman who feel oppressed to seek new social groups. The days of any kind of monolithic society are long gone -- options are available. If your so called friends and neighbors are punishing you for your sexual decisions its time to kick them to the curb. In the extreme case this may require packing up the U-haul. But that's not a bad thing -- lots of the interesting women I met in San Francisco came from the fly over states.
bigmac, all of your arguments come from a 'first person' kind of place. You and all your friends have good valid opinions but that doesn't mean any of those women you know could run for public office. No need to go through the list of men in public office who had a randy old time before they settled down with the missus. Society at large still thinks poorly of women who exercise within the same sexual liberty that men enjoy. In fact, if women came forward one by one claiming that they dated Senator X before he married no one would even care unless she could claim he was a drunk, he did drugs or doesn't pay his child support.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:10 PM   #66
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There has existed in our culture and remains prevalent in other cultures "the double standard of sexual conduct" where men can address their sexual needs with impunity, and women can address their sexual needs within a committed relationship or marriage and to veer outside those contexts for women is to be judged harshly. Does the "double standard of sexual conduct" still resonate with younger women today? Do women still judge other women harshly who operate outside sexual societal norms? Do you think that fat women are perceived to be more sexual or is that a fantasy perpetrated by FAs?


To be honest, it's really women who judge other women harshly. When you see some chick with a skimpy outfit, 9 times out of 10, it is another women that would call her a 'ho' or 'slut'. Women are the ones who bring themselves down. Yes young women still do it. It still goes on and will never go away.

We women are pushed to be competitive.

And sadly, men too, will treat you based on how you carry yourself. Yeah the man can mess around with a lot of women, but that same man would disrespect you and not take you seriously if he finds out you have been around the block. That is why so many women lie about their sexual past.

Also women who are promiscuous are more likely to get STDs---condoms don't prevent all these diseases either. Look at HPV which can lead to cancer, condoms don't stop this disease.

A woman is more likely to obtain an STD from a man than vice versa since we are built anatomically different.

And if the woman becomes pregnant, she is on her own. While the man can just easily bounce.

Promiscuity, whether from men or women, should not be condoned. And that is why we have all these nasty diseases these days.

As for fat women, I never understood that crap about them being easy. That is so not true. I can never say a certain category of women are more easy than others, that is truly garbage. Alot of fat women I know are certainly not easy! Then again, many skinny flat chested females have been around the block.

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Old 09-04-2009, 09:21 PM   #67
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[QUOTE=happyface83;1269536]

To be honest, it's really women who judge other women harshly. When you see some chick with a skimpy outfit, 9 times out of 10, it is another women that would call her a 'ho' or 'slut'. Women are the ones who bring themselves down. Yes young women still do it. It still goes on and will never go away.

We women are pushed to be competitive.

And sadly, men too, will treat you based on how you carry yourself. Yeah the man can mess around with a lot of women, but that same man would disrespect you and not take you seriously if he finds out you have been around the block. That is why so many women lie about their sexual past.

Also women who are promiscuous are more likely to get STDs---condoms don't prevent all these diseases either. Look at HPV which can lead to cancer, condoms don't stop this disease.

A woman is more likely to obtain an STD from a man than vice versa since we are built anatomically different.

And if the woman becomes pregnant, she is on her own. While the man can just easily bounce.

Promiscuity, whether from men or women, should not be condoned. And that is why we have all these nasty diseases these days.

As for fat women, I never understood that crap about them being easy. That is so not true. I can never say a certain category of women are more easy than others, that is truly garbage. Alot of fat women I know are certainly not easy! Then again, many skinny flat chested females have been around the block.

[/QUOTE

To denigrate another woman's sexual conduct is to assert superiority over the other woman. I recently saw on a t.v. series where a single woman lawyer was having dinner in a restaurant with a group of friends and later on it is revealed that she met up with the waiter who served her in the restaurant for a one night stand. The impression was that the female lawyer was glamorous and smart for getting her needs met with the waiter. I am wondering if it would have appeared glamorous if a sweatshop seamstress went and had a one night stand with the bus driver. Women taking care of their needs who are of the professional class seems glamorous while a working class woman doing the same would be judged a slut. I can keep this "stale conversation" going a long time.
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:33 PM   #68
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[QUOTE=katherine22;1269548]
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyface83 View Post


To be honest, it's really women who judge other women harshly. When you see some chick with a skimpy outfit, 9 times out of 10, it is another women that would call her a 'ho' or 'slut'. Women are the ones who bring themselves down. Yes young women still do it. It still goes on and will never go away.

We women are pushed to be competitive.

And sadly, men too, will treat you based on how you carry yourself. Yeah the man can mess around with a lot of women, but that same man would disrespect you and not take you seriously if he finds out you have been around the block. That is why so many women lie about their sexual past.

Also women who are promiscuous are more likely to get STDs---condoms don't prevent all these diseases either. Look at HPV which can lead to cancer, condoms don't stop this disease.

A woman is more likely to obtain an STD from a man than vice versa since we are built anatomically different.

And if the woman becomes pregnant, she is on her own. While the man can just easily bounce.

Promiscuity, whether from men or women, should not be condoned. And that is why we have all these nasty diseases these days.

As for fat women, I never understood that crap about them being easy. That is so not true. I can never say a certain category of women are more easy than others, that is truly garbage. Alot of fat women I know are certainly not easy! Then again, many skinny flat chested females have been around the block.

[/QUOTE

To denigrate another woman's sexual conduct is to assert superiority over the other woman. I recently saw on a t.v. series where a single woman lawyer was having dinner in a restaurant with a group of friends and later on it is revealed that she met up with the waiter who served her in the restaurant for a one night stand. The impression was that the female lawyer was glamorous and smart for getting her needs met with the waiter. I am wondering if it would have appeared glamorous if a sweatshop seamstress went and had a one night stand with the bus driver. Women taking care of their needs who are of the professional class seems glamorous while a working class woman doing the same would be judged a slut. I can keep this "stale conversation" going a long time.

That is a very interesting point. Or if the seamstress had a one night stand with a business executive! Woo, she would be called a lot of names. And we can also factor in age too. If a 40 year old women had a one night stand with a young stud, folks would be saying "you go girl". However, if it was a 19 year old getting it on with an old man, she would be called a skank.

Great thread.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:31 PM   #69
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bigmac, all of your arguments come from a 'first person' kind of place. You and all your friends have good valid opinions but that doesn't mean any of those women you know could run for public office. No need to go through the list of men in public office who had a randy old time before they settled down with the missus. Society at large still thinks poorly of women who exercise within the same sexual liberty that men enjoy. In fact, if women came forward one by one claiming that they dated Senator X before he married no one would even care unless she could claim he was a drunk, he did drugs or doesn't pay his child support.
I don't believe there is any "society at large" anymore -- we're living in an age of increased segmentation. There will always be people who dwell insignificant things such as who a woman slept with in college. I've always been of the opinion that its best to ignore such people (e.g. when asked about his indiscretions Clinton should just have said none of your damn business.) Shame only works if the target cares. Male or female, any person facing moral inquisition can disarm his foe by simply refusing to accept his inquisitor's premise (in this case by refusing to accept the social conservative assertion that a political candidate's sex life is of any public importance).

If twenty guys came out of the woodwork and told Rush Limbaugh that they slept with Nancy Pelosi years ago Rush's wacko listeners might care but I doubt many of the people who actually voted for Ms. Pelosi would. Indeed the private life of California's big three politicians (Pelosi, Feinstein, and Boxer) is pretty much a non-issue in the golden state which is as it should be.

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Old 09-04-2009, 10:48 PM   #70
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Mac, it's nice that you live in your insulated little world there, but your experiences and the people you know do not define the rule. While California has its conservative areas, it is, by and large, way more liberal in its collective thinking than, say, much of the rest of the U.S., and particularly the Midwest and Southern states. Just because you haven't seen it, that doesn't change reality, and no amount of you denying it will change the fact that in some ways the U.S. -- and CERTAINLY many other countries -- are living in the dark ages when it comes to attitudes towards women, and particularly as regards sexuality.
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:01 AM   #71
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To denigrate another woman's sexual conduct is to assert superiority over the other woman.
BINGO! Ding, Ding, Ding. I hate it when I see women do this crap to other women.

What are women "notorious" for anyway?

The majority of people in prison and violent offenders are male. (Yes, there are women that commit crimes and female serial killers....just saying that the majority of violent offenders are not women)

Domestic Abuse:
Quote:
*85-95% of all domestic violence victims are female.
*Over 500,00 women are stalked by an intimate partner each year.
*5.3 million women are abused each year.
*1,232 women are killed each year by an intimate partner.
*Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women.
*Women are more likely to be attacked by someone they know rather than by a stranger.
Men are put down for not being "sucessful enough" and making a lot of money seems to be the key to acceptance for them often time.

When women are vilified though....it tends to usually be over sexual behavior (real or unreal). We are sluts and whores.....as if we can corrupt all of society by having sex. Often time, we have sex with men....but it's not bad when they do it. Never understood that part....it takes two to tango.

Article I came across....very interesting read for anyone that might interested. It seems related to this subject, IMO.

Quote:
Why We Vilify Single Moms

It was incomprehensible how those of us left with children were not only held accountable while biological dads walked away Scott-free, but were to blame for all of society’s ills. Even those who raised children alone by design & without public assistance were vilified, a la Murphy Brown. It wasn’t just moral outrage (though that did & does exist); it wasn’t an ignorance — these were educated people saddling us with unrealistic responsibilities and ludicrous outcomes. We were being scapegoated with such an intensity that it must be hiding a deep fear of some sort… Was it simply another way to display the classic fear & hatred of “female,” or was there more?

http://www.twolia.com/blogs/kitsch-s...y-single-moms/
Our society and it's notions.....it is usually full of shit, methinks.
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:23 AM   #72
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I don't believe there is any "society at large" anymore -- we're living in an age of increased segmentation. There will always be people who dwell insignificant things such as who a woman slept with in college. I've always been of the opinion that its best to ignore such people (e.g. when asked about his indiscretions Clinton should just have said none of your damn business.) Shame only works if the target cares. Male or female, any person facing moral inquisition can disarm his foe by simply refusing to accept his inquisitor's premise (in this case by refusing to accept the social conservative assertion that a political candidate's sex life is of any public importance).

If twenty guys came out of the woodwork and told Rush Limbaugh that they slept with Nancy Pelosi years ago Rush's wacko listeners might care but I doubt many of the people who actually voted for Ms. Pelosi would. Indeed the private life of California's big three politicians (Pelosi, Feinstein, and Boxer) is pretty much a non-issue in the golden state which is as it should be.
Basically what it seems you are saying is that you know that it's true, you just feel it's better to ignore it like all the other progressive people who outnumber the backward thinkers. I would agree but I have this cloying habit of seeing the glass as half empty. I have diffuculty ignoring the blatantly obvious that I witness from day to day and read reported in the papers. The fact that it's reported is enough for me. You don't think that if it was discovered that Sara Palin was the town whore growing up it would be all over liberal news media? Or one of her daughters?
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:27 AM   #73
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To denigrate another woman's sexual conduct is to assert superiority over the other woman. I recently saw on a t.v. series where a single woman lawyer was having dinner in a restaurant with a group of friends and later on it is revealed that she met up with the waiter who served her in the restaurant for a one night stand. The impression was that the female lawyer was glamorous and smart for getting her needs met with the waiter. I am wondering if it would have appeared glamorous if a sweatshop seamstress went and had a one night stand with the bus driver. Women taking care of their needs who are of the professional class seems glamorous while a working class woman doing the same would be judged a slut. I can keep this "stale conversation" going a long time.
This conversation is anything but stale. Using the example you have given (which I believe is dead on,) would you then say that there is more than sexism involved in the double standard? Classism seems to be getting mixed in with old school sexism. Possibly ageism (going on what Happyface said later on.)
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:26 AM   #74
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This conversation is anything but stale. Using the example you have given (which I believe is dead on,) would you then say that there is more than sexism involved in the double standard? Classism seems to be getting mixed in with old school sexism. Possibly ageism (going on what Happyface said later on.)
Thanks for your response. It is a combination of factors socioeconomic class, religious and sexism. In my research I have been reading a lot of dating expert books "How to get the man of your dreams - strategies" and these dating coaches both male and female are adament that if a woman sleeps with a man on the first date she will not be considered by the man as a suitable marriage partner. Of all the factors in considering the desirability of a woman such as intelligence, decency, work ethic, etc. - why should the fact that she slept with someone on the first date totally override her other characteristics. Inferred in this observation by the dating coaches is what is valuable about a woman is that she does not sleep around. My focus on this research is to see if there is a connection between feeling ashamed to act on one's sexual desires and eating disorders in women.
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:28 AM   #75
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My focus on this research is to see if there is a connection between feeling ashamed to act on one's sexual desires and eating disorders in women.

That would be an interesting read indeed.....
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