Dimensions Forums  
Home Register Premium Membership Health Issues Market Place Big Fashion

Go Back   Dimensions Forums > Discussion > BBW Forum



Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-09-2009, 05:21 AM   #126
Mies
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 60
Mies can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokesMies can now be the recipient of "two cans" jokes
Default

I guess it's too late to bow out gracefully, but I am still bowing out. In the end, I think that I'm just not suited to getting my thoughts and feelings across in this format. In trying to be precise and concise, I fear that only the anger comes through, and I don't like that, because I'm more than just that. Much more. I'm sure that doesn't come across here.

Katherine, your last post confirms my feelings that this is about more than equality for some women. Women are indeed making more money, they outnumber men in the graduate schools and are equal to them in the professions. This is all good, yet it is still not enough for some, and that is why I'm hopping off this bus right here.
Mies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 10:20 AM   #127
mergirl
 
mergirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6,927
mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!mergirl keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mies View Post
I guess it's too late to bow out gracefully, but I am still bowing out. In the end, I think that I'm just not suited to getting my thoughts and feelings across in this format. In trying to be precise and concise, I fear that only the anger comes through, and I don't like that, because I'm more than just that. Much more. I'm sure that doesn't come across here.

Katherine, your last post confirms my feelings that this is about more than equality for some women. Women are indeed making more money, they outnumber men in the graduate schools and are equal to them in the professions. This is all good, yet it is still not enough for some, and that is why I'm hopping off this bus right here.
Yeah, you men take up far too much room on the busses!!! Busses need to be for wimmins only.. Though, i would concent to being carted around by some men dressed as ponies with butt plug tails. Only if you are nice though.. and you will have to pay me for it!!!
och men! lmao
__________________
We must learn that to passively accept an unjust system is to cooperate with that system, thereby to become a participant in its evil. -Martin Luther King, Jr.
mergirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 10:58 AM   #128
Spanky
Freakishly Normal
 
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,230
Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!Spanky keeps pushing the rep limit!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleButtBabe View Post
Mies,I do not dislike men in general or blame all men for the way women are treated, but I do hate some asshole that thinks women need to be put in their "place"..Those are the ones I rant and rave about..Those are the ones that piss me off to no end..These are the ones that still believe in double standards..

I watched Dr. Phil the other day because he had some men on that had lost their jobs and were now househusbands..These men were whining and griping because they did not like that they were doing "woman's work"..One man even had the nerve to stand up and say he wished his wife would get fired,he didn't care that they would loose everything..He was bothered that he was now doing her "job" and didn't like it...He really did not care at all because his ego was hurt that she was the one working and trying to provide for the family..This man was in his mid 30's(he looked it to me) so that would make him younger then the 40 year concept..See stuff like that is bullshit and is double standard..It is ok for him to go out there and work hard to provide for the family but for his wife to do it was horrible..

I was raised by a set of parents in the 60's and 70's who believed if you could do something and it needed to be done,no matter your sex,do it..My brothers were taught how to cook,clean,do laundry,sew,iron and all the chores..I was taught how to milk a cow,mow,chop wood,run the tiller,work the garden,make household repairs,work on cars..We all knew how to do other things besides what society said we needed to know and if we didn't do it right,there was hell to pay..My parents were using feminism before the word was invented!

I had a lot of problems finding men that wouldn't get upset when they realized I could do so much...Most didn't want to date me...I heard"well you really don't need me then do you"..It was really hard to find men that were comfortable enough to let me be me...On top of that I had a job that paid me twice as much as most of the men I met..This was not 40 years ago..This was about 15 years ago and some men were still using double standards..Now that is bullshit as well...

Any ways I am ranting now and not to good..Sleeping pills make me do this and I hardly make sense at time...
BBB,

I wanted to ask a question to you and any other BBWs interested in answering. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and saw the transformations from kids learning the preconceived Man = work and Woman = housewife to Man = work and Woman = work or housewife or both or neither. Again, I am speaking of my perceptions (and not trying to specifically interject the marriage component).

I guess I saw girls around me being given strong examples in school, media, books etc, of women going out in the world to work. Not just the Mad Men secretaries, but any job they could get, CAREER women, degrees, graduate education, science and engineering. The backlash seemed to come in the 90s and even today, where other women stood up and said that they could be in charge of the house and be a full time mom and that was just fine too. I think the ebb and flow of these pulls on expectations of women in society are expected and predictable with the end result being an American girl growing up with the full range of life goals being everything from A to Z. And all being acceptable.

As for boys. It is still Men = work, IMO. I think the stereotypes that have been broken down for women, and rightly so, have still left the perception of men to be working and in the case of having a family of more than one....providing.

Tell me if you notice this, too. I am not defending the rubes on Dr. Phil. I just wonder if their upbringing gave them one self-perception of Men = work. If that is taken away, and the alternative never offered positively while growing up, the result is what you see. I think until we work on the stereotypes of BOTH sexes, we will continue to see an imbalance of perceptions. This would go hand in hand with Katherine's original post regarding sexual conduct.

It is an interesting convo. I hope I am staying within the boundaries of the BBW Forum.
Spanky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 12:20 PM   #129
superodalisque
 
superodalisque's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: atlanta
Posts: 7,580
superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky View Post
BBB,

I wanted to ask a question to you and any other BBWs interested in answering. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and saw the transformations from kids learning the preconceived Man = work and Woman = housewife to Man = work and Woman = work or housewife or both or neither. Again, I am speaking of my perceptions (and not trying to specifically interject the marriage component).

I guess I saw girls around me being given strong examples in school, media, books etc, of women going out in the world to work. Not just the Mad Men secretaries, but any job they could get, CAREER women, degrees, graduate education, science and engineering. The backlash seemed to come in the 90s and even today, where other women stood up and said that they could be in charge of the house and be a full time mom and that was just fine too. I think the ebb and flow of these pulls on expectations of women in society are expected and predictable with the end result being an American girl growing up with the full range of life goals being everything from A to Z. And all being acceptable.

As for boys. It is still Men = work, IMO. I think the stereotypes that have been broken down for women, and rightly so, have still left the perception of men to be working and in the case of having a family of more than one....providing.

Tell me if you notice this, too. I am not defending the rubes on Dr. Phil. I just wonder if their upbringing gave them one self-perception of Men = work. If that is taken away, and the alternative never offered positively while growing up, the result is what you see. I think until we work on the stereotypes of BOTH sexes, we will continue to see an imbalance of perceptions. This would go hand in hand with Katherine's original post regarding sexual conduct.

It is an interesting convo. I hope I am staying within the boundaries of the BBW Forum.
good points to think about. i think you really have something when you talk about the backlash in the 90s. i believe both groups of women felt threatened by the idea that they had possibly made the wrong choices and maybe they took it out on each other. women who worked worried about what that was doing to thier children and women who stayed at home worried about thier individual identity. the truth might have been somewhere in the middle. it also seemed to me that the media fanned the flames and women fell for it not thinking that a lot of women had always had some mix of home and work. its as though the actual past had been totally erased. historically speaking for women only the wealthiest even had the consideration of making the choice. most other women just did what they had to do. even the most uneducated had what we would call micro businesses today. they sold eggs , produce and services like sewing and cleaning at he low end. in the middle the things they did probably varied as much as women did. but as usual we fell for some artificial portrait of us that never really existd in the first place that only served to turn us on each other and have us judge another woman for her personal choice.
superodalisque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 02:09 PM   #130
rainyday
Departed
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,892
rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.rainyday has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
i have a another question. do you think the double standard is applied more to women who are younger than us since people think they are more sexually active anyway and generally at teh beginning of what i would call a realtionship life? and also can the generational thing work the other way? is it more likely that women our age are more likely to be judged because we come from an era when men and women seemed more likely not to question the double standard or do we have more freedom because we are not at the beginning of what people might consider our traditional relationship life?
The double standard may still be applied to them, but that doesn't mean younger women are paying much attention to it. My take is that in fact they aren't, and in doing so they're rendering it less powerful. The younger women I know don't spend much time deciding whether they should or shouldn't sleep with someone or focusing on what people will say if they do. They just do as they choose.

If you look here at the posters list for this thread, except for a couple, the women who've participated in this thread are all over thirty. Could be that age makes us more likely to wrestle with things intellectually. I think a likelier answer is that younger women may feel the mantle of judgement but because they haven't worn it as heavily they aren't knotted by it and simply choose not to continue carrying it. I'm curious whether they read this thread and see women boxing with old shadows that really aren't there as much anymore.

Last edited by rainyday; 09-09-2009 at 02:31 PM.
rainyday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 03:06 PM   #131
superodalisque
 
superodalisque's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: atlanta
Posts: 7,580
superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.superodalisque has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainyday View Post
The double standard may still be applied to them, but that doesn't mean younger women are paying much attention to it. My take is that in fact they aren't, and in doing so they're rendering it less powerful. The younger women I know don't spend much time deciding whether they should or shouldn't sleep with someone or focusing on what people will say if they do. They just do as they choose.

If you look here at the posters list for this thread, except for a couple, the women who've participated in this thread are all over thirty. Could be that age makes us more likely to wrestle with things intellectually. I think a likelier answer is that younger women may feel the mantle of judgement but because they haven't worn it as heavily they aren't knotted by it and simply choose not to continue carrying it. I'm curious whether they read this thread and see women boxing with old shadows that really aren't there as much anymore.
that makes perfect sense . the thing i do love about them, the young ones, most is that they have more of an ability to put the opinions of other people and society in their proper place. we could learn a whole lot from them by just living our lives as we see fit and telling everybody else its not thier business when they make a personal comment. i think older women like us tend to take in other people's opinions like its a personal judgement more often than we should. i think younger girls see them for what they are more often--just opinions. so its easier for them to escape torturing themsleves that way. its good they understand that they don't have to give people power they really don't have.

i think the impressions we have of them calling each other slut whore etc... is much more about them demystifying those words than we give them credit for. and maybe its really just the media that pretends that young women care about what other people think so much. hey, if you don't care what people think the media is not needed. i often think of the reality shows i see out there. is this a way that the media and who they represent are trying to put women back into a place that they are well aware that they'll never really will go back to? is it an old dilapidated defunct last stab done as parody as a way to finally kiss this stuff goodbye by showing us exactly how stupid we look when we engage in pushing our ideas on other women? or how neurotic we are when we give other people's opinions of us over every little thing too much weight?
superodalisque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 05:00 PM   #132
katherine22
 
katherine22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tualatin, Oregon (near Portland)
Posts: 566
katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky View Post
BBB,

I wanted to ask a question to you and any other BBWs interested in answering. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and saw the transformations from kids learning the preconceived Man = work and Woman = housewife to Man = work and Woman = work or housewife or both or neither. Again, I am speaking of my perceptions (and not trying to specifically interject the marriage component).

I guess I saw girls around me being given strong examples in school, media, books etc, of women going out in the world to work. Not just the Mad Men secretaries, but any job they could get, CAREER women, degrees, graduate education, science and engineering. The backlash seemed to come in the 90s and even today, where other women stood up and said that they could be in charge of the house and be a full time mom and that was just fine too. I think the ebb and flow of these pulls on expectations of women in society are expected and predictable with the end result being an American girl growing up with the full range of life goals being everything from A to Z. And all being acceptable.

As for boys. It is still Men = work, IMO. I think the stereotypes that have been broken down for women, and rightly so, have still left the perception of men to be working and in the case of having a family of more than one....providing.

Tell me if you notice this, too. I am not defending the rubes on Dr. Phil. I just wonder if their upbringing gave them one self-perception of Men = work. If that is taken away, and the alternative never offered positively while growing up, the result is what you see. I think until we work on the stereotypes of BOTH sexes, we will continue to see an imbalance of perceptions. This would go hand in hand with Katherine's original post regarding sexual conduct.

It is an interesting convo. I hope I am staying within the boundaries of the BBW Forum.

Hi-Spanky,

I appreciate your posting. It is true that men have suffered too from sexual stereotyping. A result of male stereotyping is that some men have difficulty expressing a broad range of feelings beyond sexual desire, lust and rage. Men who show sensitivity, an interest in the fine arts or wear glasses and love education are judged to be effete. When a woman feels comfortable in addressing her sexual needs and both sexes have them, then that translates into feeling more comfortable in other areas of life. I hope young women have gained an independence of spirit so that their judgment of their conduct supersedes everyone else judging. Some men feel that they have been disrespected on this thread. I think this thread has been valuable and thought provoking for the participants and has hopefully lead to more understanding of each other. Some men want to pretend that they never had power over others and this topic reminds them that they had the power. Olwen said it best when she suggested that femininism held the mirror and men saw the power that they really had. History shows that no one gives up power easily.
__________________
"It's absurd to divide people into good and bad. People either or charming or tedious." Oscar Wilde

Queen Elizabeth I residing within.

If I continue to eat I will grow as big as a room.
"What are rooms for?":bow:

Last edited by katherine22; 09-09-2009 at 05:06 PM.
katherine22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 06:48 PM   #133
Green Eyed Fairy
Flash Dancing
 
Green Eyed Fairy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In Your Head
Posts: 18,106
Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.Green Eyed Fairy has ascended what used to be the highest level.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mies View Post
I guess it's too late to bow out gracefully, but I am still bowing out. In the end, I think that I'm just not suited to getting my thoughts and feelings across in this format. In trying to be precise and concise, I fear that only the anger comes through, and I don't like that, because I'm more than just that. Much more. I'm sure that doesn't come across here.

Katherine, your last post confirms my feelings that this is about more than equality for some women. Women are indeed making more money, they outnumber men in the graduate schools and are equal to them in the professions. This is all good, yet it is still not enough for some, and that is why I'm hopping off this bus right here.
Why do you think you should decide when enough is enough for others? Particularly if you're not one of the people that had to fight for a simple fair share to begin with?
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


"The longing of my heart is a fairy portrait of myself: I want to be pretty; I want to eliminate facts and fill up the gap with charms."

"See these eyes so green, I can stare for a thousand years, Colder than the moon
It's been so long and I've been putting out fire with gasoline"
Green Eyed Fairy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 07:10 PM   #134
Keb
Princess
 
Keb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 927
Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by superodalisque View Post
that makes perfect sense . the thing i do love about them, the young ones, most is that they have more of an ability to put the opinions of other people and society in their proper place. we could learn a whole lot from them by just living our lives as we see fit and telling everybody else its not thier business when they make a personal comment. i think older women like us tend to take in other people's opinions like its a personal judgement more often than we should. i think younger girls see them for what they are more often--just opinions. so its easier for them to escape torturing themsleves that way. its good they understand that they don't have to give people power they really don't have.

i think the impressions we have of them calling each other slut whore etc... is much more about them demystifying those words than we give them credit for. and maybe its really just the media that pretends that young women care about what other people think so much. hey, if you don't care what people think the media is not needed. i often think of the reality shows i see out there. is this a way that the media and who they represent are trying to put women back into a place that they are well aware that they'll never really will go back to? is it an old dilapidated defunct last stab done as parody as a way to finally kiss this stuff goodbye by showing us exactly how stupid we look when we engage in pushing our ideas on other women? or how neurotic we are when we give other people's opinions of us over every little thing too much weight?
I agree with you a lot; I also think that people who are confident (which I know is a loaded word around here) in the choices they are making tend to care a lot less what other people think about them. If you aren't confident about what you're doing, then you're more likely to seek societal approval or even demand it for your choices. When you really believe/know you're doing the right thing, it's a lot harder for other people's opinions to affect you.

Of course, we develop our beliefs about what is right and wrong in a societal environment, so we can't really come to an objective viewpoint on it without a lot of thinking, learning, and debating.

And as one of the (barely) under 30s...yes, some of what's been said did seem like people resurrecting arguments that were dead and buried by the time I was aware of them. I've seen both positive and negative effects of living in a somewhat post-feminist world, though. For example, my mother, who is often depressed because she chose the role of military wife and mother, supporting my father during a 23-year career as an officer and bringing up three kids. In a society that tends to base success on how much you make or how famous your work is, the fact that she's been the cobackbone of a fairly successful family just isn't enough. She strives for some recognition through her art and her writing and her teaching, and never feels good enough. Ever.

To me, the roles that she's taken on have been vital to both my family and the communities I've lived in. She's influenced probably thousands of students by introducing them to different cultures and different ways of looking at art, both in her volunteer and paid classes. She's created beautiful works of art that now add beauty to many people's homes and even one museum. (Okay, it's a railway museum, not an art museum, but so what?) None of her kids are a drain on society, criminals, or mean people. Her efforts made my father's successful career possible, and I don't think he's ever considered the income from his position "his" rather than "theirs." Yet because successful women are supposed to have it all, and get paid for it, she feels like a failure--as much as we depend on volunteer parents in our schools and communities (and she was always one of them), you don't get paid for it. As much as our military men and women depend on their spouses to support them and hold together their families (and often give up having a solid career due to the general fluxuations of married life), it isn't a paid position. Being a good parent: Not paid. Teaching and art? Very poorly paid, and difficult to make a living on the side with.

I see her life as an amazing influence touching thousands of lives and making them better in small and large ways. She wonders why, if it's all so important, nobody is willing to pay her for what she does.

Meanwhile, in the men's department, I think guys are drifting more because women no longer need them. People want to be independent, but they also want to have purpose and feel needed. We haven't gotten to the stage of equality where men are equally accepted as house-spouses or single fathers. Men who want to work in childcare face suspicion as to their motives, and men who choose careers in other traditionally female roles wind up working for much lower salaries, while simultaneously facing societal derision, than otherwise. I actually think the remainder of the difference between male income and female income is partly due to that, as well as women's choices.

Men have also lost out on having a lot of modern positive role models as we've sought out feminine role models to inspire our girls. I don't think gains for one sex at the expense of another are a positive thing. We're all people, and we should be working together towards our common goals. Men and women have always been strongest when supported by one another, our differences (which we should be able to acknowledge exist without denying anyone equal opportunities or rights) complementing each other and our similarities bringing us together.
__________________
Happiness is making others happy.
Keb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 07:21 PM   #135
katherine22
 
katherine22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tualatin, Oregon (near Portland)
Posts: 566
katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keb View Post
I agree with you a lot; I also think that people who are confident (which I know is a loaded word around here) in the choices they are making tend to care a lot less what other people think about them. If you aren't confident about what you're doing, then you're more likely to seek societal approval or even demand it for your choices. When you really believe/know you're doing the right thing, it's a lot harder for other people's opinions to affect you.

Of course, we develop our beliefs about what is right and wrong in a societal environment, so we can't really come to an objective viewpoint on it without a lot of thinking, learning, and debating.

And as one of the (barely) under 30s...yes, some of what's been said did seem like people resurrecting arguments that were dead and buried by the time I was aware of them. I've seen both positive and negative effects of living in a somewhat post-feminist world, though. For example, my mother, who is often depressed because she chose the role of military wife and mother, supporting my father during a 23-year career as an officer and bringing up three kids. In a society that tends to base success on how much you make or how famous your work is, the fact that she's been the cobackbone of a fairly successful family just isn't enough. She strives for some recognition through her art and her writing and her teaching, and never feels good enough. Ever.

To me, the roles that she's taken on have been vital to both my family and the communities I've lived in. She's influenced probably thousands of students by introducing them to different cultures and different ways of looking at art, both in her volunteer and paid classes. She's created beautiful works of art that now add beauty to many people's homes and even one museum. (Okay, it's a railway museum, not an art museum, but so what?) None of her kids are a drain on society, criminals, or mean people. Her efforts made my father's successful career possible, and I don't think he's ever considered the income from his position "his" rather than "theirs." Yet because successful women are supposed to have it all, and get paid for it, she feels like a failure--as much as we depend on volunteer parents in our schools and communities (and she was always one of them), you don't get paid for it. As much as our military men and women depend on their spouses to support them and hold together their families (and often give up having a solid career due to the general fluxuations of married life), it isn't a paid position. Being a good parent: Not paid. Teaching and art? Very poorly paid, and difficult to make a living on the side with.

I see her life as an amazing influence touching thousands of lives and making them better in small and large ways. She wonders why, if it's all so important, nobody is willing to pay her for what she does.

Meanwhile, in the men's department, I think guys are drifting more because women no longer need them. People want to be independent, but they also want to have purpose and feel needed. We haven't gotten to the stage of equality where men are equally accepted as house-spouses or single fathers. Men who want to work in childcare face suspicion as to their motives, and men who choose careers in other traditionally female roles wind up working for much lower salaries, while simultaneously facing societal derision, than otherwise. I actually think the remainder of the difference between male income and female income is partly due to that, as well as women's choices.

Men have also lost out on having a lot of modern positive role models as we've sought out feminine role models to inspire our girls. I don't think gains for one sex at the expense of another are a positive thing. We're all people, and we should be working together towards our common goals. Men and women have always been strongest when supported by one another, our differences (which we should be able to acknowledge exist without denying anyone equal opportunities or rights) complementing each other and our similarities bringing us together.
Keb, Your mother sounds like a wonderful person who contributed to others. It is a shame that no one valued her work to fight to see that your mother and others like her be paid for it. Women gravitated to the professions because they were trying to make a living. I beg to differ with you if you think that women thrived at the expense of men, As far as I can tell, men are still ruling most of this world. I wish more men would be housekeepers and child rearers because they would use their political know how to see that they were paid for those services.
__________________
"It's absurd to divide people into good and bad. People either or charming or tedious." Oscar Wilde

Queen Elizabeth I residing within.

If I continue to eat I will grow as big as a room.
"What are rooms for?":bow:
katherine22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 07:51 PM   #136
Keb
Princess
 
Keb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 927
Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by katherine22 View Post
Keb, Your mother sounds like a wonderful person who contributed to others. It is a shame that no one valued her work to fight to see that your mother and others like her be paid for it. Women gravitated to the professions because they were trying to make a living. I beg to differ with you if you think that women thrived at the expense of men, As far as I can tell, men are still ruling most of this world. I wish more men would be housekeepers and child rearers because they would use their political know how to see that they were paid for those services.
No, I don't think women have thrived at the expense of men--men do still have a lot of power in many spheres that is disproportionate. In other spheres, though, men have severely lost power. For example, I don't know how many men have told me that they feel women have virtually all the control when it comes to their access to their own children. One of my uncles very rarely saw his son after the divorce (which was not his choice), at least until his son grew up, because his mother kept him away. It was heartbreaking for my uncle.

In addressing the needs of female students in our schools, I think that boys have been somewhat neglected; the evidence is showing that the current structure of our public schools seems to better support the way young girls develop than the way young boys do. (Boys are the ones who tend to be diagnosed with ADHD and medicated, and are often kept back a year in kindergarten so they can compete with earlier-developing girls. Boys are less likely to say they enjoy reading, which is a key to success in school and life. And the evidence is in that there are more girls in college than boys; yay for the girls, but shouldn't boys be equally represented in upper education?)

There are still plenty of places that women need to find equal representation, and we should think about why they have not yet. Even so, there is now a certain inevitability to there being, say, a woman president. We know it will happen; it came quite close to happening in the last election (though given the particular women on the various tickets...thank God neither of them won).

Society has changed, and I think most young women now do feel that men or traditions are not capable of holding them back from success, positions, or power that they dream of in western society. The double standards that exist aren't holding us back anymore; many of them are simply the echoes of the past, like the enduring poverty among the African American community that is an echo of slavery and segregation. The echoes of women's oppression are probably going to fade way far more quickly; a generation of women who are outnumbering men in professional accredidations are also going to outnumber them in their professional fields in coming years, even if many choose lower-paying careers that appeal to their abilities or decide to become full-time mothers and/or wives.

Men, on the other hand, haven't entirely been offered the same choices. Yes, they still have the advantages that the past has bestowed upon them, but men and women are not yet truly equal. And in some realms, like the ability to choose between domestic and professional life, men are still lagging. We have to address the needs and desires of both men and women, whatever they may be, to achieve true equality.

Feminism fails when it attempts to overcompensate for the historical inequality by promoting women's rights above men's in any way. Though they might benefit in some ways from traditional roles and expectations, young men are not at fault for the crimes of their fathers and should never be punished for them. They should be as permitted socially to express their traditionally feminine qualities as women are to express their traditionally masculine ones, they should be treated as equals under the law, and where our physical differences demand a different approach, both women's and men's special needs should be addressed.

We should have equally high expectations for both men and women, with equally high rewards for equally important contributions.
__________________
Happiness is making others happy.
Keb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 08:24 PM   #137
Keb
Princess
 
Keb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 927
Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!Keb has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

BTW, Katherine, thanks for this thread--I do love a good debate and perhaps get carried away with a juicy intellectual challenge more than I should!
__________________
Happiness is making others happy.
Keb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 08:50 PM   #138
katherine22
 
katherine22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tualatin, Oregon (near Portland)
Posts: 566
katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!katherine22 has a ton of rep. Literally. As in over 2000!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keb View Post
BTW, Katherine, thanks for this thread--I do love a good debate and perhaps get carried away with a juicy intellectual challenge more than I should!
Keb- I am glad you enjoyed it. I hope some young BBW takes the opportunity to read it. Can you imagine having a thread like this available to young women and men when we were younger.
__________________
"It's absurd to divide people into good and bad. People either or charming or tedious." Oscar Wilde

Queen Elizabeth I residing within.

If I continue to eat I will grow as big as a room.
"What are rooms for?":bow:
katherine22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2009, 04:26 PM   #139
BubbleButtBabe
No one cares anyway
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hellsville
Posts: 1,071
BubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Eyed Fairy View Post
Why do you think you should decide when enough is enough for others? Particularly if you're not one of the people that had to fight for a simple fair share to begin with?

Exactly GEF..I had to prove my worth to be allowed my good paying job..When I went to get my job there were less then 150 women in a factory with over 3,000 jobs,so I had to prove to the men I worked with I could do it and to the men I worked for I could do it..
__________________
To hurt someone's spirit is to kill their soul...Me

Only two miracles are worth seeing:
The miracle of loving
And
The miracle of forgiving-Sri Chinmoy
BubbleButtBabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2009, 04:36 PM   #140
BubbleButtBabe
No one cares anyway
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hellsville
Posts: 1,071
BubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging inBubbleButtBabe makes people happy simply by logging in
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky View Post
BBB,

I wanted to ask a question to you and any other BBWs interested in answering. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and saw the transformations from kids learning the preconceived Man = work and Woman = housewife to Man = work and Woman = work or housewife or both or neither. Again, I am speaking of my perceptions (and not trying to specifically interject the marriage component).

I guess I saw girls around me being given strong examples in school, media, books etc, of women going out in the world to work. Not just the Mad Men secretaries, but any job they could get, CAREER women, degrees, graduate education, science and engineering. The backlash seemed to come in the 90s and even today, where other women stood up and said that they could be in charge of the house and be a full time mom and that was just fine too. I think the ebb and flow of these pulls on expectations of women in society are expected and predictable with the end result being an American girl growing up with the full range of life goals being everything from A to Z. And all being acceptable.

As for boys. It is still Men = work, IMO. I think the stereotypes that have been broken down for women, and rightly so, have still left the perception of men to be working and in the case of having a family of more than one....providing.

Tell me if you notice this, too. I am not defending the rubes on Dr. Phil. I just wonder if their upbringing gave them one self-perception of Men = work. If that is taken away, and the alternative never offered positively while growing up, the result is what you see. I think until we work on the stereotypes of BOTH sexes, we will continue to see an imbalance of perceptions. This would go hand in hand with Katherine's original post regarding sexual conduct.

It is an interesting convo. I hope I am staying within the boundaries of the BBW Forum.
I wonder that as well Spanky..I know some men have a preconceive notion that they should be the only ones working in their household but in this economy that doesn't work..I have noticed in households where the men were harsh or hard on their wives the boy/men grew up thinking men/work,women/home...These are the men that use the double standard more then anyone..
__________________
To hurt someone's spirit is to kill their soul...Me

Only two miracles are worth seeing:
The miracle of loving
And
The miracle of forgiving-Sri Chinmoy
BubbleButtBabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Dimensions Magazine. All rights reserved worldwide.