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Old 08-31-2009, 12:12 PM   #1
Cors
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Default A rant. Butchness, size and community

I caught up with some of my long-time lesbian acquaintances in Singapore over the weekend and naturally, I asked how my old friends were doing.

I was rather disturbed by what I heard, even though it was really none of my business. It turned out that X and Y, two somewhat notorious, chubby (by Asian standards) stone butches who have always acted all tough and prided themselves on their masculinity both lost a great deal of weight (not through WLS as far as I know). As they did so, they became increasingly feminine in terms of dress sense and mannerism. They started identifying as lesbian femmes who went out with butches before moving on to dating men exclusively. X is now engaged to a man, Y is married with kids and they have both renounced their queer past. It could well be true love, or that they realised their true sexual orientation, or a cover-up in a conservative, traditional society, or an attempt to maintain family peace (people are obsessed with filial piety and blind respect for elders here so this is not uncommon) but I am skeptical.

My acquaintances then told me that this is not entirely uncommon, citing a few others I don't know who have done the same. Two of my acquaintances (who are rather cute chubby butches themselves and more importantly, seemingly confident, successful women in their 30s who have been out for a long time) admitted that they might be tempted to do the same IF they manage to lose the weight, since there aren't many butches and far less men who will give them a second look if they are fat femmes. They also feel that identifying as a butch here severely limits their options, since old-school butch/femme is now condemned as "too hetero" and the femmes here are mostly interested in dating "andros", "no labels" and other femmes, but my acquaintances can't "pull off" anything else but "butch" because of their weight. It was so depressing but I could not convince them otherwise. Even if they could afford to and want to move to a country where their size (approximately 140-170 lbs) is common and acceptable, from what I hear, it seems that butches are out of luck in lesbian communities elsewhere too.

My acquaintances do know about my preferences, but I am the first one they have met in so many years. Even then, they were skeptical and tended to dismiss it as my sadistic Domme side liking and feeling less guilt about the idea of a huge towering meatwall that can handle all my strength and more. As a femme and an FA who enjoys bigger butches, this makes me really sad. Funny thing is, one can probably look as butch as they want as long as they don't bind and identify themselves as andro instead of butch, and it seems that more women will fall into their lap. At least, it applies in Southeast Asia and London.

Okay, questions. Are butches, particularly stone butches still welcome in your community? What are the trends if there are any? Do you think it is more acceptable for a butch to be fat, like how it is more acceptable for men to be fat? Do you know people like X and Y?

Those of you who identify as more masculine, have you felt that you had to repress desire for another butch or even a man (something that still rare and extremely taboo here) because of your perceived masculinity or your size? Do you feel that your size is related to your butchness? Have you ever felt compelled to change?

Thanks for listening!

Last edited by Cors; 08-31-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:22 PM   #2
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First of all, your friends' story makes me sad. I looove stone butches, and it really sucks to hear that, in some places, they are....going extinct. Judging from your stories though, Singapore is pretty f'd up with all the restrictions, so perhaps it is a local phenomenon.

To answer your question (and this is just an observation), there seem to be plenty of butch lesbians around here. I'd say I see more butches than femmes. Also, they are usually fat, as if it's a requirement. A few weeks ago, I saw a thin-butch couple and nearly choked - it's so rare.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:13 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Melian View Post
First of all, your friends' story makes me sad. I looove stone butches, and it really sucks to hear that, in some places, they are....going extinct. Judging from your stories though, Singapore is pretty f'd up with all the restrictions, so perhaps it is a local phenomenon.

To answer your question (and this is just an observation), there seem to be plenty of butch lesbians around here. I'd say I see more butches than femmes. Also, they are usually fat, as if it's a requirement. A few weeks ago, I saw a thin-butch couple and nearly choked - it's so rare.
Mmmm that makes me want to move!

I do see quite a number of masculine lesbians in Singapore (after all, the femmes are mostly invisible) but most of them do not actually identify as butch. In fact, many of them especially the younger ones get all insulted if you dare to ask or insinuate. ("OMG don't associate me with those deluded men-wannabes, labels suck!!!") They're not big, but they tend to be bigger than femmes and oh, most of them are also short. London is supposedly an open place with a vibrant gay scene, but "andro" (think Shane from L Word) is the "in" thing there. The bars and clubs are packed with young Shane-clones. Good for those who love that type, but it makes me sulk.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Cors View Post
Those of you who identify as more masculine, have you felt that you had to repress desire for another butch or even a man (something that still rare and extremely taboo here) because of your perceived masculinity or your size? Do you feel that your size is related to your butchness? Have you ever felt compelled to change?
1. No.
I don't identify as butch, but being masculine, a somewhat Peter Pannish tomboy, there are people who categorise me that way. Alot of my straight male friends freak out a little bit when I stare at men's asses or my eyes pop out when I see a nice pair of moobs. They also shiver when I tell them I love gay porn. But I've never had to repress myself if I saw a butch who caught my eye or a pretty boy I'd love to get into bed. I'm not sure if it's because they don't really take me seriously, but I find my inclinations and not repressing my desires has led to them being a bit more open about their own desires.

2. No again. I've always been somewhat masculine, even during my early femme days in my late teens-early 20s. I've dated butches who happened to be smaller than me (size and height-wise).

3. No, no, no. Hahah. I like myself the way I am. Warts and all.
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:33 AM   #5
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I don't know if I can answer any of your questions, Cors. I'm not really active in the queer community in my city, so I don't know much about the butches here. I do think in general that masculine identified people (both cisgendered and transgendered) get more leeway when it comes to fatness, if my experiences and observations are to be believed. I do not know anyone like X and Y, so I can't speak to that.

I don't repress my feelings of attraction for different sizes and genders (and the various combinations of those categories), but most people only want to 'read' me as a lesbian, so I don't broadcast my desires to most of my friends. I presume that cisgendered straight males would never be interested in dating me, so I focus my partnership needs elsewhere.

I feel very strongly that my size is related to my butchness, and size to me is most of what makes up my personal butch identity, because in other ways, I am not very butch. The bigger I am, the butcher I feel, for sure. I don't want to change that at all, and even though I am having a bit of a struggle processing my gendered identity with a newly smaller body, I am not interested in changing my fatness or my personal idea of butchness in any way. However, I have felt compelled to change in order to impress someone else, but that is a whole other category of stuff that I don't see leading me to a path of heterosexuality, femininity, and marriage/kids.
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