I'm Real!!!!

[TraciJo67]

Steaming all over again!!

No, Russell. We shouldn't offer advise to people who don't solicit it from us. We all have the right to live our lives however we wish to, up to and including making choices that others may not agree with.

However, there is a difference between CO-DEPENDENCE and/or ENCOURAGING vs a "live and let live" approach.

Originally Posted by Russell Williams

You have explained what you consider to be bad advice, now kindly tell us what would be good advice?


And your advice is what? "Do not eat that much again." To me that sounds a bit like telling a fat person who has trouble getting around that they thing to do is lose weight. Nice advice but, in most cases, aint goina happen.



At a convention if you see a fat woman on a scooter and she says that scooter is old it is unreliable do you tell her about places to get new scooters at low prices or do you tell her that if she got down to about 150 she might not need a scooter and therefor would save all the money she might have to spend on a scooter? Nice advice but, in most cases, aint goina happen.







What about an all you can eat banquet at a fat peoples' convention or gathering? Most doctors would probably tell the fat people there that they should lose weight. So is your advice that anyone throwing a fat peoples gathering should only serve low calorie foods with close attention to portion control? I suppose that you could give it a test and plan a fat peoples' gathering where all the events and meals are designed to help fat people lose weight (like most of their doctors want them to). You might get hundreds and hundreds of people from this board to come to your healthy convention.

Or it is possible that, for many people on this board, you could not get them to come even if you paid them to come.

Yours truly,

Some person or persons who uses the name Russell Williams (See a previous post on who is real and who is not real around here)

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by fatgirlflyin

That's not reasonable advice, it wasn't a large meal, it was a whole pie. There's a big difference, and I'd imagine that any doctor would say so as well.

There's a big emotional difference. Otherwise there isn't that much of a difference from a big Thanksgiving dinner with seconds. The method on managing the increase in BG levels is the same.

Originally Posted by fatgirlflyin

You don't go into an AA meeting flashing pictures of a Jack Daniels bottle, or drug addict meeting (what are they called? it escapes me) flashing pictures of a junkie shooting up. That cake picture being posted here was pretty much the equivalent of that..

So you're saying the boards at Dimensions should be have an environment like Overeaters Anonymous? You're saying a fat acceptance site should help her in her self flagellation over eating a whole pie? I think the responses she received are more appropriate. While they didn't beat her up as you (and maybe she) seemed to expect, it did try to emotionally decriminalize the behavior. That has been shown to be an important element in changing behavior. It's OK to slip up occasionally. Just try to go longer between mistakes next time.

(And yes, I do know just how terrible diabetes is. I think it's complications are actually grossly understated.)

[fatgirlflyin]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

There's a big emotional difference. Otherwise there isn't that much of a difference from a big Thanksgiving dinner with seconds. The method on managing the increase in BG levels is the same.


So you're saying the boards at Dimensions should be have an environment like Overeaters Anonymous? You're saying a fat acceptance site should help her in her self flagellation over eating a whole pie? I think the responses she received are more appropriate. While they didn't beat her up as you (and maybe she) seemed to expect, it did try to emotionally decriminalize the behavior. That has been shown to be an important element in changing behavior. It's OK to slip up occasionally. Just try to go longer between mistakes next time.

(And yes, I do know just how terrible diabetes is. I think it's complications are actually grossly understated.)

I wasn't suggesting anyone should beat her up. What I AM saying is that you shouldn't tell a diabetic who feels terrible about eating a whole pie, that she shouldn't worry about it and then go into a story about how you gorge yourself on chocolate.

Maybe its me but its not that hard a concept to understand....

[TraciJo67]

Originally Posted by fatgirlflyin

Maybe its me but its not that hard a concept to understand....

No, it's not a hard concept to understand.

I haven't wanted to get further involved in the Sue element to this thread, since I do think that a bit of a torch-carrying mob has formed.

But yes, what you've said is dead-on correct in suggesting that the initial reactions to Sue's post (which I view as clueless, not sinister) was understandable. It's not about beating up on the OP. It's about offering encouragement and support, and stories about enjoying and indulging oneself in the face of someone else's pain is hardly appropriate.

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by fatgirlflyin

I wasn't suggesting anyone should beat her up. What I AM saying is that you shouldn't tell a diabetic who feels terrible about eating a whole pie, that she shouldn't worry about it and then go into a story about how you gorge yourself on chocolate.

Maybe its me but its not that hard a concept to understand....

Sue was trying to emotionally decriminalize Penny's behavior by showing Penny is not alone in eating an entire dessert. Sue was not trying to ridicule or minimize Penny's feelings on the issue.

I do see a lot of other Dims posters who still have such deep emotional hatred of fat that they seem to think everyone should wade into the fate hatred swamp to empathize with Penny. It's a trap that many of us recognize, even if you don't. We'd rather stand on the safety of the shore and toss her a lifeline. Sorry you didn't think the branch we were using was appropriate and believed we should be using a rope instead.

[TraciJo67]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

I do see a lot of other Dims posters who still have such deep emotional hatred of fat that they seem to think everyone should wade into the fate hatred swamp to empathize with Penny. It's a trap that many of us recognize, even if you don't. We'd rather stand on the safety of the shore and toss her a lifeline. Sorry you didn't think the branch we were using was appropriate and believed we should be using a rope instead.

Heretic, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no such emotional hatred of fat. What I do intensely dislike, though, is pretending that appropriate concern about someone else's emotional pain is the same thing as hating on teh fat so as not to disrupt any FA fantasies that life in fat land is always a grand, pleasantly alluring stroll in the park. Nobody has suggested that Penny should beat herself up for eating a pie. I actually agree with part of what you're saying, which is that decriminalizing such behavior is far more appropriate than chastising her (which I'm sure she's done plenty of to herself). But I doubt very much that this is what Sue was trying to do, and even if she was, it was the wrong approach.

You don't seem to understand that others who have responded to Penny were ALSO trying to throw her a branch. It's OK to be human and to react to emotional pain in ways that bring us comfort. That's allowed. We understand the pain that Penny is living with -- at least, those of us who live in or have lived in very fat bodies understand it. But it is still ultimately an untenable solution. A better alternative would be to offer suggestions on how to respond DIFFERENTLY to these kind of situations so that Penny doesn't continue to resort to eating a pie and then hating herself for it. It's not OK to tell her that she should continue indulging herself with said pie, and to shoot herself up with insulin to correct the subsequent imbalance (ala Russell Williams). And it's not OK to respond with a story that oozes with sexual charge about how luuuuuuuuucious and innnnnndulgent and orgasmically woooooonderful it feels to eat a great big heavenly chunk of sugary cake, complete with photos of said cake (ala TFS). And it's most definitely not OK to suggest that those of us who feel that these are inappropriate responses are just fat hating fools (ala HereticFA).

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by TraciJo67

Heretic, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no such emotional hatred of fat. What I do intensely dislike, though, is pretending that appropriate concern about someone else's emotional pain is the same thing as hating on teh fat so as not to disrupt any FA fantasies that life in fat land is always a grand, pleasantly alluring stroll in the park. Nobody has suggested that Penny should beat herself up for eating a pie. I actually agree with part of what you're saying, which is that decriminalizing such behavior is far more appropriate than chastising her (which I'm sure she's done plenty of to herself). But I doubt very much that this is what Sue was trying to do, and even if she was, it was the wrong approach.

You don't seem to understand that others who have responded to Penny were ALSO trying to throw her a branch. It's OK to be human and to react to emotional pain in ways that bring us comfort. That's allowed. We understand the pain that Penny is living with -- at least, those of us who live in or have lived in very fat bodies understand it. But it is still ultimately an untenable solution. A better alternative would be to offer suggestions on how to respond DIFFERENTLY to these kind of situations so that Penny doesn't continue to resort to eating a pie and then hating herself for it. It's not OK to tell her that she should continue indulging herself with said pie, and to shoot herself up with insulin to correct the subsequent imbalance (ala Russell Williams). And it's not OK to respond with a story that oozes with sexual charge about how luuuuuuuuucious and innnnnndulgent and orgasmically woooooonderful it feels to eat a great big heavenly chunk of sugary cake, complete with photos of said cake (ala TFS). And it's most definitely not OK to suggest that those of us who feel that these are inappropriate responses are just fat hating fools (ala HereticFA).

Thank you.

Heretic, I've no idea if you're fat, I'm guessing not. There can be a great deal of ambivalence in being fat, even for the most well-adjusted fat person. It's not all rainbows and unicorns, neither is it all difficult and unhappy. As with most things in life, there exists a lot of gray area. It irks me to no end when a FA perceives any kind of comment residing in the dark area, or even the gray area, as fat hatred. Many posters here, present company included, possess profoundly complicated emotional issues with food, eating, binging, what have you, and we are quick to recognize that pain when it's expressed by others. THAT is what a lot of us were responding to in Penny's original post and the responses.

I'll give you a hypothetical and topical whole cake example. If I eat an entire cake and feel overwhelmed with guilt and remorse and anxiety and hurt afterwards, it doesn't mean I hate my - or anyone's - fat. It means I feel out of control, in the grips of something bigger than me, and self-destructive. I feel like crap emotionally and physically, not because I'm fat, but because I just ate way too much for reasons that had nothing to do with physical hunger and still didn't fix whatever emotional issue drove me to binge in the first place. And if I expressed that feeling to someone afterwards and was met with a response like some early in this thread that caused objections, it would make me feel even worse about myself and my actions. Do you see the difference between that and "fat hatred"?

Russell, whatever you're on, may I have some, please.

Stan, grrrrrr for reviving a thread that lay dormant for a week for doofy joke reasons.

[BothGunsBlazing]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Thank you.

Heretic, I've no idea if you're fat, I'm guessing not. There can be a great deal of ambivalence in being fat, even for the most well-adjusted fat person. It's not all rainbows and unicorns, neither is it all difficult and unhappy. As with most things in life, there exists a lot of gray area. It irks me to no end when a FA perceives any kind of comment residing in the dark area, or even the gray area, as fat hatred. Many posters here, present company included, possess profoundly complicated emotional issues with food, eating, binging, what have you, and we are quick to recognize that pain when it's expressed by others. THAT is what a lot of us were responding to in Penny's original post and the responses.

I'll give you a hypothetical and topical whole cake example. If I eat an entire cake and feel overwhelmed with guilt and remorse and anxiety and hurt afterwards, it doesn't mean I hate my - or anyone's - fat. It means I feel out of control, in the grips of something bigger than me, and self-destructive. I feel like crap emotionally and physically, not because I'm fat, but because I just ate way too much for reasons that had nothing to do with physical hunger and still didn't fix whatever emotional issue drove me to binge in the first place. And if I expressed that feeling to someone afterwards and was met with a response like some early in this thread that caused objections, it would make me feel even worse about myself and my actions. Do you see the difference between that and "fat hatred"?

I think your logic and reasoning just detonated in my face.

[Miss Vickie]

Russell, what the hell? Are you a doctor, or another medical professional who should be giving such incredibly dangerous advice to a diabetic? No? Didn't think so. You're the one, after all, who waxed rhapsodic on the old Dimensions site about bringing vast amounts of McDonalds home to your wife who was disabled by her weight and diabetes. So you'll forgive me if I say you have no place in giving anything resembling medical advice.

The fact is that any health care provider will tell you that what you recommend is playing Russian roulette to take in that much sugar when you're a diabetic, particularly a poorly controlled diabetic who has had problems related to her diabetes. What if her sugar spikes to 500 in that first hour? What then? What if she goes into DKA before she is able to check her sugar and take insulin? What if the sugar spike so messes with her mind that she can't give herself the correct amount of insulin, and over -- or under -- doses herself? The human body -- even the same human body -- doesn't respond the same way every time to sugar so you have no way to reliably predict how much insulin she should take before, and what her glucose would be in an hour. She might be in no condition to check her sugar. Then what? Is that pie really worth losing her kidneys, her limbs, her eyesight, her life?

Telling a diabetic that it's okay to manage their disease like that is like telling an alcoholic it's okay to drink a fifth of Jack and then go to an AA meeting. Or someone struggling with asthma that it's okay to smoke a pack of cigarettes and then use their inhaler.

But your response is exactly as I expected.

None of us who have responded hate fat or fat people, but we are understandably concerned about a diabetic who expresses her inability to control her eating. Many of us have been there, in fact, and struggled in the same ways that she has struggled. No, it's not about making her feel bad about making a dangerous choice, but rather helping her find out why she made such a choice, why she feels her eating is out of control, and how can she get help so that she can make healthier choices and feel better about her eating. True self love, in my book, is giving our bodies what they need to thrive. Not feeding ourselves what ends up being poison that can harm our quality of life and ultimately take years off our lives.

HereticFA, I appreciate what you said about it being an emotional difference. You're right. At Thanksgiving, it's sanctioned in our culture to overeat, but the rest of the time we're "bad people" for overeating. And yes, controlling glucose is done in the same way, regardless of the context. However, the difference between a Thanksgiving meal and a pie are different in one crucial way: the intake of protein and fat along with the sugar. A pie, while it has some fat, is mostly sugar but a Thanksgiving meal is full of protein, fat, and many other nutrients. The protein in particular is important because it kind of "buffers" the blood sugar, usually, and slows down some of the rapid spikes and valleys that our bodies experience when we eat raw sugar. So physically, it's a little different, and it's that difference -- plus her emotional mindset while eating it -- that concerns me.

You bring up some interesting points and I appreciate them. I don't hate fat, or food, at all. But it doesn't feel right to me to enable someone by encouraging them to make decisions about their body that are dangerous. And no, of course I wouldn't say something to someone out of the blue; however if I'm asked (as Penny brought up her situation here and asked for help) I'll chime in, in as positive and supportive and honest a way as I can.

[imfree]

Originally Posted by TraciJo67

This makes me steaming mad.

This is NOT good advise, ...snipped.... Advising a diabetic to manage his/her illness with insulin, rather than by making the strict dietary changes advised by his/her nutritionist and physician is ... DAMN IT ... it verges on, and depending on the context of the relationship veers directly into ABUSE. I sincerely hope that you aren't advising the people in your life to eat around their illness and to rely on insulin to keep their blood sugar in line. ......snipped.....

That is a great post, TracyJo. I'm a type II diabetic who
uses insulin on a sliding scale. I would never even
consider eating such a massive amount of sugar, such
as in a whole pie, but I do enjoy rice, pasta, and
occasional pizza. I use a good deal more insulin than
someone who carefully follows diabetic dietary guidelines.
Part of that excess could be attributed to recurring
cellulitis infection, but honestly, I consume more carbs
and calories than any doctor would approve of. I would
really like to see good data on various food/insulin use
levels. Other than increased colon cancer risk and water
retention, I've seen no information about consequences
of higher insulin use. Once again, I do not advocate
increased insulin to cover high consumption of excessive
sugar.

[fatgirlflyin]

Ok. Well you know what, next time I'm with a friend, one who's a recovering alchoholic and they start going on about being ashamed that they have fallen off the wagon, I will make sure to whip out my bottle of bourbon and pour myself a nice fat shot while telling them to not feel bad about falling off the wagon.

Its all about context. If you're diabetic should you be eating a whole pie? No. If you're an alcoholic should you be drinking? No. If you're an addict should you smoke that crack? No. And people who tell you not to feel bad about doing any of those things while showing you pictures of them doing it or telling stories about their activities involving those items are NOT looking out for the best interests of the person in pain.

Originally Posted by HereticFA

Sue was trying to emotionally decriminalize Penny's behavior by showing Penny is not alone in eating an entire dessert. Sue was not trying to ridicule or minimize Penny's feelings on the issue.

I do see a lot of other Dims posters who still have such deep emotional hatred of fat that they seem to think everyone should wade into the fate hatred swamp to empathize with Penny. It's a trap that many of us recognize, even if you don't. We'd rather stand on the safety of the shore and toss her a lifeline. Sorry you didn't think the branch we were using was appropriate and believed we should be using a rope instead.

[mossystate]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

Sue was trying to emotionally decriminalize Penny's behavior by showing Penny is not alone in eating an entire dessert. Sue was not trying to ridicule or minimize Penny's feelings on the issue.

I do see a lot of other Dims posters who still have such deep emotional hatred of fat that they seem to think everyone should wade into the fate hatred swamp to empathize with Penny. It's a trap that many of us recognize, even if you don't. We'd rather stand on the safety of the shore and toss her a lifeline. Sorry you didn't think the branch we were using was appropriate and believed we should be using a rope instead.

Wowza.

Sue was only thinking about Sue...you are using the absolute wrong person to test out your feelings on " emotional decriminalization ". Perhaps it had nothing to do with Sue's routine, and more that you just wanted to take a swing at other people. That doesn't really bode well for your wanting to do less beating up on people who struggle.

Who was wading into a fat hatred swamp? You are a bit melodramatic...and you obviously did not take off your ' uhoh, somebody did not support the eating of a bakery, they must be fat haters '...blinders . If you want to get someone to the safe shore, you don't think back on all the times you had orgasms over whatever it is the person is struggling with.
----
" Oh...wow...you cut yourself with a razor?....mmmmmmmmm...I remember the time when I had blood GUSHING from a wound I made on my leg. My whole bod was buzzing with the high of the release ".

Getting somone safely to the shore is to tell them that they are human, and that they can get to the point where they won't feel a need to hurt themselves. You do not wave a razor, and tell them you will show them how to cut in a way that will not hit a major vein. WTF.

Selfish, is what that is...and I don't care if anybody thinks that a torch is lit, and I don't care who does the repeated disregard for the person in front of them...no matter what I personally think of them.

[Miss Vickie]

It seems like in order to not be seen as fat hating, we're expected to just go along with and support whatever dangerous food choices people make. I'm sorry, but I refuse to do that.

To me this is personal. My oldest brother is losing his vision, his mobility, has long lost his ability work, and nearly killed himself last year in a car accident -- all due to his diabetes. He's only 60 years old and can't work, is mostly stuck at home, has trouble reading, writing, cooking and even caring for himself. He fell a few weeks back because he can't feel his feet, and now has two nasty diabetic ulcers on his feet that could end up resulting in amputation. And this is the brother who has tried very hard to take care of himself, who checks his sugar regularly, eats a lot of fresh foods, no sugar. He, like my father (who died of heart disease and diabetes when I was 12) was handed a poor set of genetics. He's tried, but even with the best medical care and his best intentions he probably won't live to see his grandchildren enter school.

My other brother died last year of complications from a diabetic ulcer on his leg that became infected. He became septic, ended up in a coma, tubes in his mouth, his nose, his penis and his rectum. He had machines breathing for him, filtering his blood, maintaining his heart rate. He died last year. He was 49. Forty nine, folks. FORTY NINE. I watched him make bad decisions, from WLS when he had no intention of following the dietary guidelines, to eating unbelievable amounts of sugar, to not getting regular medical care. He paid the ultimate price -- he lost his life.

Diabetes is serious business. It's more important than not hurting people's feelings. It's more important than fat politics. People DIE from it. Every damn day. Every. Damn. Day.

So do I get pissed when I see someone throwing their health away? Yes, I do. But what pisses me off even more than that are people who are so blase, so complacent about other people's health that they say, "It's okay. Do whatever you want." Will they be there to hold that person's hand when they're experiencing phantom pain from the limb long gone, to read and answer their mail, dial their phone, make phone calls for them? Will they be there to bury them? Unlikely.

So yes, this is personal. It's not about my personal feelings about fat. It's about the senseless and unnecessary loss of health and life, and for what? A momentary enjoyment of food? A "sugar buzz"?? Is it really worth it? Truly?

[katorade]

And once again, this thread sums up why I think this board needs to split like a troubled, quaking amoeba. Size acceptance and fat appreciation do not belong on the same party barge. Hooray for unpopular ideas!

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by Carrie

Thank you.

Heretic, I've no idea if you're fat, I'm guessing not. There can be a great deal of ambivalence in being fat, even for the most well-adjusted fat person. It's not all rainbows and unicorns, neither is it all difficult and unhappy. As with most things in life, there exists a lot of gray area. It irks me to no end when a FA perceives any kind of comment residing in the dark area, or even the gray area, as fat hatred. Many posters here, present company included, possess profoundly complicated emotional issues with food, eating, binging, what have you, and we are quick to recognize that pain when it's expressed by others. THAT is what a lot of us were responding to in Penny's original post and the responses.

At my current BMI of 31.2, I qualify as obese. (My cardiologist certainly wants me to lose weight.) When I was an adolescent, my BMI of 42 to 45 put me into the morbidly obese category. It took me years to overcome a lot of the food issues from adolescence, one issue at a time. It also made me realize food issues can be separated from your emotions, if you're willing to take the first step and let them go. Failing to do so is like trying to swim with a family heirloom anvil. You're doomed to hit bottom. Self hatred of your body is that anvil.

Originally Posted by Carrie

I'll give you a hypothetical and topical whole cake example. If I eat an entire cake and feel overwhelmed with guilt and remorse and anxiety and hurt afterwards, it doesn't mean I hate my - or anyone's - fat. It means I feel out of control, in the grips of something bigger than me, and self-destructive. I feel like crap emotionally and physically, not because I'm fat, but because I just ate way too much for reasons that had nothing to do with physical hunger and still didn't fix whatever emotional issue drove me to binge in the first place. And if I expressed that feeling to someone afterwards and was met with a response like some early in this thread that caused objections, it would make me feel even worse about myself and my actions. Do you see the difference between that and "fat hatred"?

And all of those can be broken down into the component issues and dealt with individually. I did it with myself and I've done the same thing with my wife. My discussions with others who used to be fat found many of them did the same thing-they addressed their issues after breaking them down into the smallest element they could. Start with realizing it's not about control, its about influence. Not only does it destigmatize the situation, it does more accurately describe what's going on. Add in the realization that the influence of the food (frequently engineered to be irresistible) is a significant reason for your binge and maybe you can break the circle of binging and subsequent self hatred you've become used to over the years. Sometimes the best way to win is to not play the game.

While I don't know you well enough to know how you really feel about being fat, the twenty or so binge eaters I know usually hated their weight equally as much as they hated their binging. You say they are separate (and they may be with you) but that's a very infrequent occurrence from my observations. At best it's a chicken and egg situation.

[Jes]

You make a very good point. It's always been a locus of tension for me, too. This site started as 1 thing and I think that it has, to a great extent, become something else. Or at least includes a lot of something else. When the object of the fantasy speaks, it can be very polarizing. I'm not going to villify anyone on either side of this debate but it's definitely a very real problem in my mind.

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by Miss Vickie

HereticFA, I appreciate what you said about it being an emotional difference. You're right. At Thanksgiving, it's sanctioned in our culture to overeat, but the rest of the time we're "bad people" for overeating. And yes, controlling glucose is done in the same way, regardless of the context. However, the difference between a Thanksgiving meal and a pie are different in one crucial way: the intake of protein and fat along with the sugar. A pie, while it has some fat, is mostly sugar but a Thanksgiving meal is full of protein, fat, and many other nutrients. The protein in particular is important because it kind of "buffers" the blood sugar, usually, and slows down some of the rapid spikes and valleys that our bodies experience when we eat raw sugar. So physically, it's a little different, and it's that difference -- plus her emotional mindset while eating it -- that concerns me.

You bring up some interesting points and I appreciate them. I don't hate fat, or food, at all. But it doesn't feel right to me to enable someone by encouraging them to make decisions about their body that are dangerous. And no, of course I wouldn't say something to someone out of the blue; however if I'm asked (as Penny brought up her situation here and asked for help) I'll chime in, in as positive and supportive and honest a way as I can.

Unfortunately the starch heavy composition of most year end holiday dinners offers little in the way of protein or fiber buffering. That was the basis for my comment.

I'm concerned about most of the comments regarding controlling dietary intake for diabetics as if it were a sprint when it's actually a marathon. Very, very few people can immediately make the change to a proper diabetic diet. It takes months for most and years (if ever) for some. That's why I was trying to focus on downplaying the errant behavior of the binge. That opens the door to discussing what leads up to it and how to avoid the next binge by recognizing the steps that precede the binge. Even if you can't avoid it, at least keep increasing the interval between them.

[Carrie]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

<snip>

While I don't know you well enough to know how you really feel about being fat, the twenty or so binge eaters I know usually hated their weight equally as much as they hated their binging. You say they are separate (and they may be with you) but that's a very infrequent occurrence from my observations. At best it's a chicken and egg situation.

Thank you, but I'm not looking for tips on treating binge eating disorders. I am, as previously stated, working on my own emotional issues with food and eating, but fortunately (for me), they are not severe enough to include binging. The entire cake example was a hypothetical example, as I explained.

And you're right, you don't know me, not even a little bit, if you think fat hatred or self hatred is part of my current vocabulary. Neither have been for quite a few years, thankfully.

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by katorade

And once again, this thread sums up why I think this board needs to split like a troubled, quaking amoeba. Size acceptance and fat appreciation do not belong on the same party barge. Hooray for unpopular ideas!

Originally Posted by Jes

You make a very good point. It's always been a locus of tension for me, too. This site started as 1 thing and I think that it has, to a great extent, become something else. Or at least includes a lot of something else. When the object of the fantasy speaks, it can be very polarizing. I'm not going to villify anyone on either side of this debate but it's definitely a very real problem in my mind.

Umm, Dimensions started life as the newsletter of the Fat Admirer Special Interest Group (FA SIG) of NAAFA. Later, the website was started as an adjunct to the magazine. The combined core themes have always been Fat Admirers and Fat Acceptance. Everything else that has been added since those two cornerstone themes is the newcomer.

Why is it that so many seem to blame philosophical disagreements on the evil FA fantasies? While I came to the NAAFA culture 28 years ago as an FA, I stayed as a fat person. Yes, there are some FA's oblivious to their partner's needs and health issues. However not all live down to that stereotype.

I do see a lot of people paying lip service to "size acceptance" but have an underlying thread of wanting to be thinner (or never getting fat again) running throughout their posts. Dimensions is really looking more like an OA meeting these days and far less like a fat acceptance site.

[Jes]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

Umm, Dimensions started life as the newsletter of the Fat Admirer Special Interest Group (FA SIG) of NAAFA. Later, the website was started as an adjunct to the magazine. The combined core themes have always been Fat Admirers and Fat Acceptance. Everything else that has been added since those two cornerstone themes is the newcomer.

.

I've never disagreed with this.

[Tina]

Originally Posted by TraciJo67

No, it's not a hard concept to understand.

I haven't wanted to get further involved in the Sue element to this thread, since I do think that a bit of a torch-carrying mob has formed.

But yes, what you've said is dead-on correct in suggesting that the initial reactions to Sue's post (which I view as clueless, not sinister) was understandable. It's not about beating up on the OP. It's about offering encouragement and support, and stories about enjoying and indulging oneself in the face of someone else's pain is hardly appropriate.

This, exactly.

Originally Posted by Carrie

Heretic, I've no idea if you're fat, I'm guessing not. There can be a great deal of ambivalence in being fat, even for the most well-adjusted fat person. It's not all rainbows and unicorns, neither is it all difficult and unhappy. As with most things in life, there exists a lot of gray area. It irks me to no end when a FA perceives any kind of comment residing in the dark area, or even the gray area, as fat hatred. Many posters here, present company included, possess profoundly complicated emotional issues with food, eating, binging, what have you, and we are quick to recognize that pain when it's expressed by others. THAT is what a lot of us were responding to in Penny's original post and the responses.

I'll give you a hypothetical and topical whole cake example. If I eat an entire cake and feel overwhelmed with guilt and remorse and anxiety and hurt afterwards, it doesn't mean I hate my - or anyone's - fat. It means I feel out of control, in the grips of something bigger than me, and self-destructive. I feel like crap emotionally and physically, not because I'm fat, but because I just ate way too much for reasons that had nothing to do with physical hunger and still didn't fix whatever emotional issue drove me to binge in the first place. And if I expressed that feeling to someone afterwards and was met with a response like some early in this thread that caused objections, it would make me feel even worse about myself and my actions. Do you see the difference between that and "fat hatred"?

Russell, whatever you're on, may I have some, please.

Stan, grrrrrr for reviving a thread that lay dormant for a week for doofy joke reasons.

This, exactly, too.

Originally Posted by tonynyc

Now Stan : in the Avatar are you wearing your "Tar and Featherin" Hat for this special occassion

Wow, that cat totally has a Yoda-like face.

[HereticFA]

Originally Posted by Miss Vickie

It seems like in order to not be seen as fat hating, we're expected to just go along with and support whatever dangerous food choices people make. I'm sorry, but I refuse to do that.

Trying to get people to make abrupt dietary changes is like over correcting a cars steering. I see people try to slam themselves into their new diabetic diet (the "sprint" approach) and repeatedly fail and give up. This just seems self defeating. Slow and purposeful change seems to be much better (the "marathon" approach). That gives most people time to adapt their mind, body and emotions to their new reality. If they can successfully follow the abrupt dietary change, by all means do so. But stop berating those who can't. It comes across as "fat hating". It's not an "either/or" situation. It's a "good/better/best" situation with "good" being any continuous decrease in sugars/starches/fats and increase in physical activity.

Originally Posted by Miss Vickie

<painfully heartbreaking accounts of diabetic issues suffered by loved ones omitted>

So yes, this is personal. It's not about my personal feelings about fat. It's about the senseless and unnecessary loss of health and life, and for what? A momentary enjoyment of food? A "sugar buzz"?? Is it really worth it? Truly?

I've seen these issues in my family as well. A cousin lost his leg, scrotum and buttocks to necrotizing fasciitis due to an ulceration from where his toes were amputated due to diabetic complications. My dad had macular degeneration, neuropathy with the ensuing muscular atrophy and incontinence (urinary and bowel), and scleroderma. My wife has had her lenses replaced due to diabetic cataracts and she has the beginnings of peripheral neuropathy. I'm reasonably familiar with horrors of diabetes and the urgent need to manage it properly. My assumption twenty years ago was that I would face diabetes so I started being reasonably careful with my diet. That still hasn't been enough to shield me from the "cousin" to diabetes, high triglycerides. My cardiologist believes it may be a contributing factor to my own CHF via microvascular disease.

I've tried to convince my wife to treat her diabetes as positively, immediately and directly as if her clothes were on fire. That got her attention for a few weeks. Then I asked her if she was trying to commit suicide (when her BG levels were above what her BG meter could read - 500 mg/mmol). That seemed to stick with her for a few months. Most recently, it was the surgeon rescheduling her knee replacement surgery until she could demonstrate her ability to keep her BG levels under 190 that really seemed to wake her up. I've seen a no nonsense change in her this time but time will tell if this is the real deal.

I know you are extremely angry with the impact diabetes and bad food choices has made on your family. Unfortunately not enough diabetics will share your drive to change. Add in an environment of cultural and comfort foods that are the worst for BG control and it underscores the challenge everyone faces. My wife and I keep trying different "healthy" recipies, trying to find new favorites that don't seem like diet foods. We've found some hits, lots of misses and, yes, even the occasional "health hostile" meals. (And those will become less frequent over the coming months.)

[Miss Vickie]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

Trying to get people to make abrupt dietary changes is like over correcting a cars steering. I see people try to slam themselves into their new diabetic diet (the "sprint" approach) and repeatedly fail and give up. This just seems self defeating. Slow and purposeful change seems to be much better (the "marathon" approach).

This is great, if the person is in a physical condition that they can handle it. Sometimes we have to make drastic changes immediately in order to save their lives, and then while they're in the hospital (I deal with an inpatient population) we do the long term teaching and give them options when they want sweets; we teach them to try substitutes and when they do want that "forbidden food", we teach them how to go about it relatively safely, not eating it on an empty stomach, limiting the amount, being sure to have enough insulin, etc. I agree with you that it's the long haul that's important to consider and that for most people going from eating candy and soda to a diet that's only lean meats and salads won't work. While it's probably the best for them physically, it's for most people not maintainable, not in our culture, and not with the lack of support that most people get after discharge.

All that being said, it's akin to poisoning one's self when one is a diabetic and eats a ton of sugar in one sitting. Even if you do take "enough" insulin, it's usually not going to cover the sugar as effectively as what the body does -- which is nuanced in a functioning system, not a hit of insulin all at once. It doesn't take a lot of sugar going to the wrong place to cause permanent, irreparable damage. So, as a health care provider, I'm not going to tell them "oh, it's okay, you'll be fine" because very likely, they won't. But I will tell them not to beat themselves up, but rather maybe find out why they made that choice and see if they can do it differently next time. I'm all about celebrating successes, but I'm not going to minimize the "glitches", either.

But stop berating those who can't. It comes across as "fat hating". It's not an "either/or" situation. It's a "good/better/best" situation with "good" being any continuous decrease in sugars/starches/fats and increase in physical activity.

I'm not berating anyone, and to me their size is irrelevant. I'm not going to tell them that they're a bad person and deserve mistreatment, but I'm also not going to enable them (like family members often do -- sneaking in Skittles, McDonalds' shakes, etc., something I see all the time). Their size has nothing to do with it, and I have no idea why you say it's "fat hating". If they're diabetic -- and I care for diabetics of all sizes and shapes -- they are endangering their health, possibly beyond that which we as medical types can repair. Period. Skinny, fat, it doesn't matter.

And yes, if course it's a continuum, good/better/best but there's also a continuum in the other direction, which is "probably not a good idea", "really not a good idea" and "a recipe for disaster". With my patients, I encourage them to make good choices because to me that's the ultimate act of self love. Eating one's self into an early grave is the antithesis of that.

I strongly believe that we are our own best healers, when we choose to be. We can also be our own worst enemies. It's naively trusting to think that you can eat a lot of glucose at one sitting and count on your diabetic medication to "fix it", something I have sadly seen in some long term diabetics who think they can just take insulin and then wonder why they have neuropathy and kidney failure. Yes, insulin does work, but it was never meant to act as a safety net for those kinds of meals. It's only meant to allow someone to survive and eat the carbs they need -- not necessarily want -- to function. It doesn't work as well as the human body's way of managing insulin when it's working properly. And even with the most appropriate dosage of insulin and careful dietary control, people can have their health devastated. My dad was an incredibly compliant diabetic and died at 52, despite making the very best choices he could when he got his diagnosis.

As for my anger, it's not only with the choices my brother made and its impact on me, but also professionally, the effect it has on the newborns I care for. These kids end up in the NICU, with IV's, and some have organ damage. They face an uphill battle to just survive because their moms were unable to control their glucose during pregnancy. They are then at higher risk for diabetes, and the cycle goes on. Sometimes it's because of purely bad luck, but I see so many diabetics whose diets are just incredibly unsafe. It makes me so sad and worried for them.

Unfortunately not enough diabetics will share your drive to change. Add in an environment of cultural and comfort foods that are the worst for BG control and it underscores the challenge everyone faces. My wife and I keep trying different "healthy" recipies, trying to find new favorites that don't seem like diet foods. We've found some hits, lots of misses and, yes, even the occasional "health hostile" meals. (And those will become less frequent over the coming months.)

Oh, I know that many diabetics don't feel as I do. I've seen it, a lot. I admit that I was a little blase about it until nursing school, when I cared for my first pre-amputee, whose rotting feet you could smell from outside the room. There's nothing like the very physical manifestation of what you've learned theoretically to bring it all home. I wish there were some way I could convey that to my patients, before they have permanent damage. Maybe we just don't explain it well enough. I don't know, but it seems like so many people don't understand how important it is... until it's too late.

I can't do anything about the people who aren't ready to make changes, other than to be sure they totally understand, to the extent they can, the permanent ramifications of the choices they are making. However, when someone comes here, feeling badly because she can't get her eating under control, I'm going to advise her to talk to her doctor, nutritionist and even a therapist to find out why and see what kind of support she can do, in order to prolong her life.

It seems like you've seen the same things I have, HereticFA, and I feel for you, with what you've gone through with your family and your wife. I appreciate your analogy about "your clothes being on fire" because the damage from diabetes is ongoing and immediate, not theoretical and "someday". I really hope she comes to a place where she can live with her diabetes peacefully and do what she needs to do to manage it while still enjoying life. It's not easy with our culture, to be sure. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[katorade]

Originally Posted by HereticFA

Umm, Dimensions started life as the newsletter of the Fat Admirer Special Interest Group (FA SIG) of NAAFA. Later, the website was started as an adjunct to the magazine. The combined core themes have always been Fat Admirers and Fat Acceptance. Everything else that has been added since those two cornerstone themes is the newcomer.

Why is it that so many seem to blame philosophical disagreements on the evil FA fantasies? While I came to the NAAFA culture 28 years ago as an FA, I stayed as a fat person. Yes, there are some FA's oblivious to their partner's needs and health issues. However not all live down to that stereotype.

I do see a lot of people paying lip service to "size acceptance" but have an underlying thread of wanting to be thinner (or never getting fat again) running throughout their posts. Dimensions is really looking more like an OA meeting these days and far less like a fat acceptance site.

Way to put words in my mouth. I never said Dimensions couldn't just be Dimensions, but the "everything else" needs its own separate forum so these stupid arguments stop popping up like dandelions. I am so fucking sick of seeing people labeled fat-haters or skinny-wannabes because they have legitimate emotional problems with their size, the way they see themselves, the way others see them, and the way they THINK others see them. That can't be solved with a simple "oh, have some cake and fugeddaboutit! We love fat people here, screw the rest of the world!"

As far as fat appreciation and size acceptance being on the same site, one has basically shit all to do with the other, so I don't know WHY they're paired up here! It's like saying bacon and pork tenderloin taste the same because they come from the same animal.
I honestly don't give a crap about the social struggles of FAs, nor am I a patron of the pay-site boards, or of the library, no offense to anyone on here. The only reason I do come here is because there is a small handful of people that get "it", and I enjoy their posts and talking with them, and because there is absolutely no other moderately active forum on the internet out there for someone like me where I feel I'm at least only partly objectified as a fat woman.

[joswitch]

Originally Posted by katorade

And once again, this thread sums up why I think this board needs to split like a troubled, quaking amoeba. Size acceptance and fat appreciation do not belong on the same party barge. Hooray for unpopular ideas!

And yet - threads like this serve to confront issues that affect both FAs / FFAs and (SS)BBWs / (SS)BHMs, and while they may get ugly sometimes - maybe they help some people understand each other a bit better and maybe "get real" as applicable...

btw -I fucking LOVED your "split like a troubled, quaking amoeba" simile though!
Awesome! Truly. No snark. This is my fave phrase that I heard today!