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Old 09-16-2009, 07:59 AM   #51
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In the general case, I think it is very rare that all of anyone's needs can be fully met by any one person.

More specifically, the flip side of the coin from what you mentioned is that most guys, no matter how much they adore their wife, have friends with whom they can go out and compete with in some way (sports, poker, chess, fundraising, trash talk each other, whatever).
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:22 PM   #52
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This is an excellent essay grounded in the Vulcan (yeah, I know) precept that beauty lies in infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I know I can't feel what most of you can but I can still hold that my perspective is as valid and valuable as anyone else's. Truly infinite diversity includes even assholes and the congenitally insensitive. JMO.

Honestly this is way better than anything I have to say on the subject. Please at least have a look: http://www.thinkingmeat.com/essays/idic.html
That was an excellent article. Everyone is different, and just because someone does not show "emotional intelligence" (i.e. cares for us in a way that fits our own preconceived notions of what care is) that doesn't mean they are unintelligent or insensitive or mentally ill. The fact that your significant other is there for you and wants to be around you is a lot more indicative of his/her love than the methods they use to communicate it. If you benefit from the relationship and enjoy being around that person, and they do things that you consider insensitive, you should either just accept it as part of who they are, talk to them about it to try to reach a compromise, or find someone who more fits your emotional needs. Trying to get them to change in order to better fit your ideal of what a relationship should be is manipulative and counterproductive.
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:25 PM   #53
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That was an excellent article. Everyone is different, and just because someone does not show "emotional intelligence" (i.e. cares for us in a way that fits our own preconceived notions of what care is) that doesn't mean they are unintelligent or insensitive or mentally ill. The fact that your significant other is there for you and wants to be around you is a lot more indicative of his/her love than the methods they use to communicate it. If you benefit from the relationship and enjoy being around that person, and they do things that you consider insensitive, you should either just accept it as part of who they are, talk to them about it to try to reach a compromise, or find someone who more fits your emotional needs. Trying to get them to change in order to better fit your ideal of what a relationship should be is manipulative and counterproductive.

Emotions are a form of intelligence. We have a message in this culture that we are always to be happy and to have negative emotions is bad for our health. This does not make sense in that it unrealistic to think we are to feel good all the time. Being in touch with the complexity of one's emotional life makes a person interesting.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:05 PM   #54
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i'm certain there are men who are very loving without being able to show it as a woman might need. but thats why a woman has to decide whether that is enough for her--hence the question. how much can a woman survive with or do without? is a woman denying herself something she really needs when she makes the compromise? should she make the compromise?

women are always encouraged societally to give up on looking to have their emotional needs met. and for the most part we have either at one point or another. how much of the lack of the emotional intelligence is due to a man just not putting forth an effort and using the "i am just a man " theme as an excuse? should women require men to make more of an effort no matter what their level of intelligence is? after all if a man is dyslexic we don't expect him to remain illiterate. we know he is fully capable of being literate if he puts forward an effort. sure it may not be as easy for him as for everyone else but life isn't always fair. sometimes we have a challenge. but if a man choses to remain illiterate even though the help is there why should a woman deal with that? shouldn't a man have to take the time to make a study of how to be with other people in order to fully engage with them if he needs to? if he isn't willing and doesn't care if he remains illiterate on a certian level should a woman really have to deal with that? should a man be forced to deal with that in a woman? or isn't he also free to move on to someone who might be more fulfilling as a partner. being that partner has nothing to do with meeting every need a woman has as a human being . it only means you are more of a benfit to her life than a detriment. you are not a depressing addition but a happy one. you are more of a pleasure than a struggle.

on dims much is made of whether a fat woman is sexually desireable to herself FAs society and the outside world. but i don't think the problem is whether she is physically desireable or not. that is just a distraction. even a 100lb toothless unwashed crack addict can easily find someone who will have sex with her and even pay her for it. i think the real issue is who a woman decides to offer herself to and under what conditions. do those conditions fulfill her personal needs? how a man approaches a woman and relates to her has everything to do with that. its natural that a woman, any woman is sexually desireable. we are made that way. we are a miracle. we all hold a kind of beauty in one way or another for those disearning enough who care to look and find it. we're not supposed to be exactly the same. we aren't supposed to be a man's ideal but our own. if a man finds us and we happen be his ideal thats a more natural process than trying to make a woman become other than she is-- and vice versa. instead of women trying to change a man maybe we should just analyze whether we can take someone as he is or do we have to move on. so its not a big deal either way if we are huge or tiny unless we build that up in our own minds--in my opinion. i know a lot of people will disagree with that and i honor that opinion too. i think what we can agree on though is that it definitely is a big deal that we get what we women need out of a relationship whatever that might be. and even though i respect you guys opinions, and i'm glad you are expressing it, its really not up to you what is enough for us. only we know that. and just like vulcans, i think the idea that a real man, even a clumsy one, can't emotionally connect with a woman is a fiction. so no more excuses dudes, just do the work.

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Old 09-16-2009, 07:34 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by olwen View Post
I think it takes more emotional intelligence to have a *successful* long term relationship. Any two people can end up in a relationship and both can be completely selfish and disrespectful. Which could make for an unpleasant relationship.

It also takes emotional intelligence to have a successful one night stand, meaning you actually bother to please the other person. It's really easy to have a one night stand and not give a shit about whether the other person is satisfied. It also takes emotional intelligence to make sure you are being satisfied during a one night stand, without offending the other person.

So you are both right, but about different aspects. In both scenarios effective communication and knowing yourself well are key.
i agree. but i think it takes a lot more emotional intelligence to make something work for 30yrs than just for one night. when you don't have any real responsibilities to each other other than a night of sex and you don't face any of the real life challenges as a couple who've been together 30 yrs--i think its unrealistic to say that takes the same amount of emotional intelligence. i don't think its disrespectful of people who have one night stands to say that 30 yrs takes more work than one night -- no matter how well or respectfully you might do it. its only logical. its my personal opinion that the two things are entirely different and don't need to and should not be compared.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:49 AM   #56
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i agree. but i think it takes a lot more emotional intelligence to make something work for 30yrs than just for one night. when you don't have any real responsibilities to each other other than a night of sex and you don't face any of the real life challenges as a couple who've been together 30 yrs--i think its unrealistic to say that takes the same amount of emotional intelligence. i don't think its disrespectful of people who have one night stands to say that 30 yrs takes more work than one night -- no matter how well or respectfully you might do it. its only logical. its my personal opinion that the two things are entirely different and don't need to and should not be compared.

I think real life challenges kills the sex. There are very few women who can say with a degree of honesty that they simply like sex with no strings attached. They may not be on Dims but there are women who are comfortable in just having sex just like men have always done. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and some people do not see the necessity to impose all these conditions and fictions about a basic human need.
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:04 PM   #57
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I think real life challenges kills the sex. There are very few women who can say with a degree of honesty that they simply like sex with no strings attached. They may not be on Dims but there are women who are comfortable in just having sex just like men have always done. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex and some people do not see the necessity to impose all these conditions and fictions about a basic human need.
well i for one was not making a judgement on one night stands here. just saying that one night with someone does not take the same amount of work as 30 yrs. that would be like saying doing temp work at a company for a day is the same as working for that company for thirty years. someone might be one hell of a temp worker but there is no way the same amount of labor was undertaken during the two differing time periods. that probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to most folks. it doesn't mean that one worker was better or worse than the other. it just means one had to apply themselves to thier position longer than another--which requires a different amount of and a different depth of work over the differing periods of time.

having said that, for myself i think relationships make sex better. overcoming real life challenges together and coming out of the other end anyway for me can make sex better. it builds my trust and openess factor with someone if i know i can count on him even when things are hard. i love knowing i have someone to share my life with. that works for me. but, just because thats what i like i don't expect everyone to be the same. and also it shouldn'tsince we are all different. i also like the fact that i have the freedom to change my mind and maybe think something different at another time in my life and not be trapped by fears of congizant dissonance just because i have something to prove to someone else about being "right". tomorrow it would be ok for me to decide that i only wanted one night stands from here on out if thats what my emotions said worked for me.

if one person prefers one thing and someone else prefers the other it does not follow that one or the other is better or the two things are competing as a lifestyle. they can exist side by side. i think what women need to get over in particular is the idea that because someone has a differing opinion we have to fight it out to the death in terms of who is right. being different from one another does not mean that just by having those differences that it places a judgement on someone else. the only thing thats right is the choice people make for themselves that they can happily apply. whether it works for other people or not should make no difference. what they do or don't do , like or don't like does not have to be a judgement. its just thier personal opinion or thier personal likes or dislikes. it does not have to include a moral judgement about someone else--specially from someone like me who is not qualified to pass judgement on anyone else at all since all i am is human anyway.
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:28 PM   #58
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I'm not commenting directly on what you said, just that you reminded me that a lot of people tend to confuse social skills with emotional intelligence; and that while one can definitely benefit the other, they needn't go hand in hand. I've met surprisingly a lot of people who are very social but quite inept in emotional understanding and some who were vice versa. I wouldn't even necessarily say that people with/out a high degree emotional intelligence are entirely responsible for their level of maturity in that matter - although they should be aware of it at least - it might be just what happens to be their natural level of perception/awareness and that's what they go with.
back to emotioal intelligence:

yes i know a lot of socially awkward types who are the most feeling and empathetic when it comes to the emotions of others. they have no problems understanding how other people might feel in similar situations. but they have problems evolving whatever they do observe into an appropriate action. that can be really frustrating to a partner who knows there is a caring person in there but would just like to be able to feel that once in a while in some kind of concrete way. so does it really matter if you understand if you can't put that understanding into action?
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:40 PM   #59
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Basically boys have it reinforced over and over again through life experiences to shun emotion-related things despite the fact that it's really really needed to do well in personal relationships when it matters most.

Thanks a lot, society.
i think this is a really good point. society doesn't seem to think its important on the whole. so a lot of guys may lack the same education young girls get when it comes to paying attention to emotions and engaging in the appropriate reactions that should accompany them. also the guy has to be willing but unfortunately it seems like socety has a culture of stubborn when it comes to guys. it expects them to resist change and improvement in this area. i wonder why that is?
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Old 09-17-2009, 06:03 PM   #60
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well i for one was not making a judgement on one night stands here. just saying that one night with someone does not take the same amount of work as 30 yrs. that would be like saying doing temp work at a company for a day is the same as working for that company for thirty years. someone might be one hell of a temp worker but there is no way the same amount of labor was undertaken during the two differing time periods. that probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to most folks. it doesn't mean that one worker was better or worse than the other. it just means one had to apply themselves to thier position longer than another--which requires a different amount of and a different depth of work over the differing periods of time.

having said that, for myself i think relationships make sex better. overcoming real life challenges together and coming out of the other end anyway for me can make sex better. it builds my trust and openess factor with someone if i know i can count on him even when things are hard. i love knowing i have someone to share my life with. that works for me. but, just because thats what i like i don't expect everyone to be the same. and also it shouldn'tsince we are all different. i also like the fact that i have the freedom to change my mind and maybe think something different at another time in my life and not be trapped by fears of congizant dissonance just because i have something to prove to someone else about being "right". tomorrow it would be ok for me to decide that i only wanted one night stands from here on out if thats what my emotions said worked for me.

if one person prefers one thing and someone else prefers the other it does not follow that one or the other is better or the two things are competing as a lifestyle. they can exist side by side. i think what women need to get over in particular is the idea that because someone has a differing opinion we have to fight it out to the death in terms of who is right. being different from one another does not mean that just by having those differences that it places a judgement on someone else. the only thing thats right is the choice people make for themselves that they can happily apply. whether it works for other people or not should make no difference. what they do or don't do , like or don't like does not have to be a judgement. its just thier personal opinion or thier personal likes or dislikes. it does not have to include a moral judgement about someone else--specially from someone like me who is not qualified to pass judgement on anyone else at all since all i am is human anyway.
I appreciate your remarks. This is a subject where I have conducted a lot of research. I like to see shame taking out of the sexual equation for women. Women cannot claim their true power unless they are the ones who decide what is best for them and how to behave.
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