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Old 11-02-2009, 02:53 PM   #1
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Default FA Myths thread # 5

"Fat Admirers are fetishists and thus tarnish the credibility of the size acceptance movement through their association with it"

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(Please read the following before posting a response)

This is the fifth topic for discussion in relation to the FA board project "FA Myths and Misconceptions". It will be discussed for 2 weeks in this thread before being edited and ultimately posted to the FA Myths and Misconceptions sticky.

The aim of the 'FA Myths and Misconceptions' project is create a useful and helpful resource for all FAs, but it is presumed to be of likely specific benefit to the new and/or inexperienced among us for whom misconception and misunderstanding may be most common.

Please keep discussion on topic and productive. Any off topic discussion, flaming, personal attacks or thread crashing will be deleted.
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:37 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by James View Post
"Fat Admirers are fetishists and thus tarnish the credibility of the size acceptance movement through their association with it"
Depends on how you define "Fat Admirer" and "fetish."

Many people who are fat fetishists like to claim that they're Fat Admirers for reasons that have nothing to do with admiration of fat people. The two ideas may not necessarily co-exist happily, or at all, in the same person. In my opinion, some fat fetishists are merely not comfortable with calling themselves "fetishist" and so feel they have to put a veneer of acceptability on their practices by calling themselves "FA."

"FA" can act as a self-closeting label for fetishists.

So really, this issue is complicated by those problems.

OTOH, people who call themselves "FAs" are not necessarily fetishists in practice. But claiming that fetish is the same as admiration in an effort to legitimize fetishism as belonging with the cause of SA is wrongheaded, IMO.

Fetishism is good for getting fetishists off, and that's great, but it is not always compatible with a philosophy of fat civil rights.

So FAs should be clear on these issues when they claim the label "FA" for themselves. And they should be clear on why, if they are for the civil rights of people of all sizes, the ideas about fat that fetishists bring to the table can turn out to be problematic and incongruent with the political and civil interests of the fat people FAs admire.
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Last edited by Fascinita; 11-02-2009 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:49 PM   #3
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I would say that FA's who obviously have a fetish hender the SA movement, but not all FA's. But I don't think Dimensions is a place of SA. It is a fat acceptance AND is a place designed for the male eye. "Where Big is Beautiful" how many guys you know like to be desribed as beautiful? I don't know of any. So where big is beautiful, you would expect to see lots of big women. So this site was made for men with a passion (not all FAs have a fetish), but none the less it is not size acceptnace, but fat woman acceptance....maybe.

My brain hurts. I know what I mean, but I'm not expressing it well. For the record, I am a ok with this being a mans playhouse....just wish there was a place/forum for serious SA without the overtly sexual stuff and that isn't totally old school.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:02 PM   #4
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I've got quite a few fetishes and what not and I can go about being here without making them the sole focus of my existence.

I think the lack of balance for some people is the problem. Don't be in full on CHECK OUT MY FETISH AND CATER TO IT mode constantly because that will just make you look creepy and no one will want to interact with you anyway, so you'll basically get nowhere with it. If you can show there is more to you then just being a walking hard on, you'll get much further on this particular forum and well, most places.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by BigBellySSBBW View Post
just wish there was a place/forum for serious SA without the overtly sexual stuff and that isn't totally old school.
I hear you, but ... is it even possible to have serious SA without the overtly sexual stuff? Or is it like what Piet Hein says about dreams:

"Since everything's either concave or convex,
Whatever you dream will be something with sex."

Seriously, SA is about relating to other people, and relations seem inevitably to include sexual ones. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that it seems inevitable to me.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dr. Feelgood View Post
I hear you, but ... is it even possible to have serious SA without the overtly sexual stuff? Or is it like what Piet Hein says about dreams:

"Since everything's either concave or convex,
Whatever you dream will be something with sex."

Seriously, SA is about relating to other people, and relations seem inevitably to include sexual ones. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that it seems inevitable to me.
My fat self being able to get a job, rent an apartment, walk down the street without being shouted at or assaulted....all have 0 to do with sex or sexuality. There are many sides to size acceptance and most of them have nothing to do with sex.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:31 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Dr. Feelgood View Post
Seriously, SA is about relating to other people, and relations seem inevitably to include sexual ones. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just that it seems inevitable to me.
But let's not confuse the sexuality of fat people with the sexuality of "those who admire them." They don't always intersect.

As far as I'm concerned, where the interests of "those who admire" fat people do not actually further the interests of fat people, they should not be considered within SA's reach.

When we talk about SA, we aren't talking about the civil or political rights of fat fetishists or even of Fat Admirers as a group, just to be clear. Those are separate movements that may or may not have things in common with SA.

When we talk about SA, we're talking about Size Acceptance.

Let's be clear.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by James View Post
"Fat Admirers are fetishists and thus tarnish the credibility of the size acceptance movement through their association with it"
Personally, I can't even imagine who'd come up with a statement like that as it shows an appalling degree of negativity and cynicism, let alone an utter lack of knowledge about the size acceptance movement and its history that is filled with FA contributions.

It also reeks a bit of the concentrated efforts of a few to paint and disqualify all male interest in fat partners as some mere fetish. Tell that to all the FAs who have fat partners they care for and adore.

The statement as is makes about as much sense as attempting to disqualify gays and lesbians with sexual interests from the gay rights movement. We're all human beings with our private sides and interests that can very well co-exist with our political and philosophical goals and leanings.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Webmaster View Post
Personally, I can't even imagine who'd come up with a statement like that as it shows an appalling degree of negativity and cynicism, let alone an utter lack of knowledge about the size acceptance movement and its history that is filled with FA contributions.

It also reeks a bit of the concentrated efforts of a few to paint and disqualify all male interest in fat partners as some mere fetish. Tell that to all the FAs who have fat partners they care for and adore.

The statement as is makes about as much sense as attempting to disqualify gays and lesbians with sexual interests from the gay rights movement. We're all human beings with our private sides and interests that can very well co-exist with our political and philosophical goals and leanings.
I couldn't of said it better!

Does it even make sense that the only possible way someone could be interested in a fat person is through a fetish? Sure, there are FAs who have fetishes that will act on those fetishes in a rude and crude manner that will diminish the SA movement, but I highly doubt that is even close to the majority, or even close to 5 or 10 percent of FAs.
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Old 11-02-2009, 07:06 PM   #10
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This is the relevant definition of fetish:

Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

Fetishes are extremely common, in fact I don't believe I've ever meant anyone who didn't have some sort of fetish. It's a normal and vital part of human sexuality. I absolutely believe that most, if not all fas, have fetishes because that is just the way the brain is wired to interpret sexual stimulus.

The real question is why so many people here seemed to have developed the idea that fetishes are bad. Or that anyone with a fetish is a sex-obsessed weirdo. They may vary in degree but once again, fetishes are extremely common if not almost universal.

Some people have fetishes for blonde hair, dark eyes, six pack abs, flat stomachs, big stomachs, muscles, bald heads, fat thighs, etc etc and etc. It's not some deviant behavioral flaw. It comes with the development of a sexual preference.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by fffff View Post
This is the relevant definition of fetish:

Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

Fetishes are extremely common, in fact I don't believe I've ever meant anyone who didn't have some sort of fetish. It's a normal and vital part of human sexuality. I absolutely believe that most, if not all fas, have fetishes because that is just the way the brain is wired to interpret sexual stimulus.

The real question is why so many people here seemed to have developed the idea that fetishes are bad. Or that anyone with a fetish is a sex-obsessed weirdo. They may vary in degree but once again, fetishes are extremely common if not almost universal.

Some people have fetishes for blonde hair, dark eyes, six pack abs, flat stomachs, big stomachs, muscles, bald heads, fat thighs, etc etc and etc. It's not some deviant behavioral flaw. It comes with the development of a sexual preference.
Yep, I was thinking all this as I read this thread, thanks for posting it here. The use of 'fetish' as a meaningful word here at Dims is impossible, because there seem to be 153 different definitions of fetish used by folks who post, and 85% of those folks use it in a negative way, which does a disservice to SA because it allows the culture at large to continue to define any fat attraction AT ALL as a pathological psychological condition that needs to be fixed.

So, in order to further the cause of SA, lets stop throwing the word fetish around as if we all have PhDs in sexuality, and talk about the realities, the particularities, of fat attraction and fat sex.
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Old 11-03-2009, 07:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by butch View Post

So, in order to further the cause of SA, lets stop throwing the word fetish around as if we all have PhDs in sexuality, and talk about the realities, the particularities, of fat attraction and fat sex.
I know enough about fat fetishes and do not need a PhD to have an opinion. That is quite condescending actually.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:18 PM   #13
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Yes, I have a sexual fat fetish.

It coexists with my love of fat people, which I express through kindness, respect and support of fat friends and family members.

So while the fetish element is there, I feel it tarnishes nothing.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:40 PM   #14
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So, in order to further the cause of SA, lets stop throwing the word fetish around as if we all have PhDs in sexuality, and talk about the realities, the particularities, of fat attraction and fat sex.
Why? Because we're afraid of how we're seen by the world? Because there isn't a *real* problem at Dimensions of some vocal self-described "fetishists" who say things like "the non-fetish content at Dimensions is unimportant"?

I'm sorry you don't feel like these dynamics pose a real problem for fat people who want the space to explore their sexuality when it exceeds what others deem important for them, but count me as one fat person for whom this does pose a very real problem of gender oppression.

The OP poses a loaded question. The "myth" itself posits "fetish" as something negative. Even Webmaster responds that Fat Admiration is no "mere fetish." We can hope that it becomes a more neutral and less problematic term, but for now this discussion seems to be exactly about the word itself.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:56 PM   #15
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The issue here is that the term "fetish" is getting deliberately blurred to suit different agendas. I'd say we have two roughly main schools of what "fetish" means here at Dimensions:

1. Fetish, as in "I haz a fetish for fat chicks/guys. They're hot!"

2. Fetish, as in feeder, which can range from anything light and casual to serious single-minded feeding that might fuck up a person's health.

I think it's fair to say that the second kind has fuck-all to do with fat acceptance. It's fat fetish, and that's fine and nobody else's business BUT IT IS NOT FAT ACCEPTANCE. It kinda doesn't do fat people a service nor help fat acceptance that the two concepts are deliberately blurred.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:17 PM   #16
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The issue here is that the term "fetish" is getting deliberately blurred to suit different agendas. I'd say we have two roughly main schools of what "fetish" means here at Dimensions:

1. Fetish, as in "I haz a fetish for fat chicks/guys. They're hot!"

2. Fetish, as in feeder, which can range from anything light and casual to serious single-minded feeding that might fuck up a person's health.

I think it's fair to say that the second kind has fuck-all to do with fat acceptance. It's fat fetish, and that's fine and nobody else's business BUT IT IS NOT FAT ACCEPTANCE. It kinda doesn't do fat people a service nor help fat acceptance that the two concepts are deliberately blurred.
Will you marry me in the next life? Seriously. You have said exactly what I was meaning to say, but you made sense!

It could be argued that #2 is anti size acceptance....but thats a fish to fry for another day.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:27 PM   #17
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I say things like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fascinita View Post
Why? Because we're afraid of how we're seen by the world? Because there isn't a *real* problem at Dimensions of some vocal self-described "fetishists" who say things like "the non-fetish content at Dimensions is unimportant"?

So I also have to acknowledge the beauty and truth in posts like these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melian View Post
Yes, I have a sexual fat fetish.

It coexists with my love of fat people, which I express through kindness, respect and support of fat friends and family members.

So while the fetish element is there, I feel it tarnishes nothing.
The "myth" in the OP assumes that "fetish" does tarnish the name of FAs. I feel that what happens is that some people who are secretly embarrassed by their fetish usurp the "FA" label because they think it covers their shame. But that does a disservice to more than just fat people. It is unfair to people who identify as fetish-ey and who have nothing to hide. So it keeps "fetish" in a kind of limbo of shadiness that it doesn't deserve.

Not all fetish sexuality seems compatible with SA. But this doesn't mean that fetishists can't participate in SA as a civil rights movement, or even a liberation movement, for fat people. So long as the interests of fat people--maybe inclusive of fat sexuality, depending on who you ask--come front and center and first, no one who loves fat people and is willing to work with them should be excluded from SA.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:55 PM   #18
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Didn't NAAFA already have the discussion where they declared feedism anti-size acceptance? And hasn't that been a spectacular failure because it assumes that clear thinking people who are committed to size acceptance can't separate their sexuality from political involvement?
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:10 PM   #19
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:14 PM   #20
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I think the real issue here is that fat admirer is an incredibly broad term. It is a bit like saying 'athletes' or 'music lovers.' "Fat admirer" could mean someone who prefers a little padding, it could mean someone who doesn't look at anyone under four hundred pounds, it could mean someone whose only real preference is that the amount of fat be increasing, it could mean someone into big, muscular, athletic with some padding, and so on.

Some people who fall under the umbrella "FA" may have a fetish somehow related to fat. Those who do have a fetish may or may not also have a more normal preference for fat partners.

Anyway, in my opinion the existence of fat admirers in general should be at most a side issue in size acceptance. I do get that some people would argue "well, maybe all that you say about choice and health are true, but fat people are still ugly and nobody wants them" at which point the existence of fat admirers may be relevant (although maybe a better answer is "I think that is really my issue to worry about....and believe me, I'm not worried." After all, the main message is supposed to be about the inherent value of all people, no matter size, NOT that some other people value you in particular.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:18 PM   #21
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Didn't NAAFA already have the discussion where they declared feedism anti-size acceptance? And hasn't that been a spectacular failure because it assumes that clear thinking people who are committed to size acceptance can't separate their sexuality from political involvement?
Anyhow, this thread isn't about NAAFA. I don't think all feedism = anti-size acceptance, just that they're essentially unrelated concepts that intersect socially.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:50 PM   #22
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Didn't NAAFA already have the discussion where they declared feedism anti-size acceptance? And hasn't that been a spectacular failure because it assumes that clear thinking people who are committed to size acceptance can't separate their sexuality from political involvement?
Good point. Well made.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:48 PM   #23
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"Fat Admirers are fetishists and thus tarnish the credibility of the size acceptance movement through their association with it"

Of all the myths presented so far, this is the most clearly "mythological". If you think that FAs are irrelevant or harmful to the size acceptance movement, then you are defining SA too narrowly. How can we convince society that fat people, as a group, are just as worthy, valuable, and lovable as thin people, if no one is willing to openly express love for them as individuals? I don't think the SA movement can succeed without including FAs. On the flip side, if the stigma of being fat is removed, so is the stigma of loving a fat person, so FAs have a lot to gain from supporting SA.

And what's wrong with lusting after a fat body? Or being the object of that lust? (I refuse to use the word "fetish" for this, because it serves only to demonize a legitimate preference.) Is it not important for a fat person to feel loved and desired as a sexual being? There are some fat people who feel successful and accepted in all aspects of their life EXCEPT love and sex. What can SA offer to those people? Should we tell them, "Sorry, but anyone who thinks you're hot must be a pervert". To me, that sounds a lot like "No one will really love you unless you lose weight." That's the opposite of SA, in my opinion.

Those who would classify all FAs as fetishists are, in reality, insulting all fat people by implying that a fat person cannot be loved as part of a healthy sexual relationship. If we believe in SA, we must do everything we can to fight this attitude.
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Old 11-03-2009, 07:16 PM   #24
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The size acceptance movement is politic based. As such its agenda is a tool used to lever the government to improve the quality of life while decreasing the negative aspects inherent in society toward fat people as a group.

That being said, what is the role of FAs in this?
We are not the ones whose lives are being improved directly by this body of politic unless we ourselves are fat.

The affects we feel as FAs are indirect through our relationships with those of our preference. Why then would it matter whether or not our attraction to fat is a fetish or preference?

By our association either with those of our preference or the body of politic fighting for the rights of the ones we admire and prefer, our roles are: activist, support, and promotion of size acceptance through the day to day living as FAs in relationships with those we admire. All of FAdom, BECAUSE of this preference directly support and join the fight for SA at the grass roots level by being seen with fat people with our heads held high, answering questions posed by our friends and families about our preference, enlightening people of the difference between our preference and what might be seen as a fetish, and by doing what we can to seek out the tools that make our fat partners lives better daily.

Directly and indirectly we project a sense of normalcy through these (inter)actions in society that is contrary to the popular belief. Others rally directly in support politically in ways similar to what Conrad has done with websites, and talk show appearances, and petitions to stop prejudicial behaviours, and denying business to those not equipped for them and their partners as clientele.

Regardless of how our preference is perceived at any level I see the myth as being one of natural assumption that the ignorant and uneducated perceive as a threat to the status quo. I see a large economic cost impact in how business runs itself if size acceptance wins. (business hates, and fights ruthlessly anything that may cost them at the bottom line). I see a divide and conquer aspect to the propaganda that this myth promotes through its implication, causing those of size to question the motives of those who admire them. I also see it as a naturally attained hurdle, in the course of progress, to overcome in the fight for Size Acceptance that starts with fat people fighting for their rights, and continues with FAs supporting their efforts through day to day living with them, amongst them, showing our acceptance of them; proudly. It is not only myth but misdirection and propaganda.

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Old 11-03-2009, 10:29 PM   #25
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Are we discussing the compulsion, excessive regard or attachment of using something physical (all that there entails about fat, weight, gaining, etc.) in the minds eye to attain sexual gratification?

Some made up examples:

Walking in the mall and a glance essentially turns into a stare. Creepy, yes .. but does it discredit?

On the computer and gazing at porn hours on end ... does that discredit?


Well ... clearly noted .. there's excess and compulsion. Does that hinder or potentially hinder the movement of size acceptance? I wouldn't think so.


Yes, people have been known to do this.


But how does that give credibility to tarnishing or diminishing the SA movement if one is associated with that?


Aren't they private thoughts, anyhow? Unless the thoughts take hold of you and you become a stalker. And yes, mannerisms are important. Not polite to stare.
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