The Duggars....19th baby in ICU...

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by Flutterby68

I think those people are fucked up beyond ALL sense of reality, but then... I think their desire to breed their own little christian compound is fucked up anyway.

They are paid a fortune for their TV show by whoring out their lives. They believe that dinosaurs and humans were here at the same time and REFUSE to believe in scientific proof because... gasp... it's NOT what their infallible book says.

Not only are they freaks, but they are raising their children to be freaks too. And anything, religion or otherwise, that states I have to be submissive to my husband and pop out baby after baby until my uterus falls on the carpet.... sorry, it can kiss my fat white ass.


Edited to add: Well educated??? Not hardly. They are completely homeschooled and much of their so-called education is religion based and flies in the face of established scientific facts. They skew everything to go along with their religious babble. Sickening.

Im usually the last person to be defending crazy religion, BUT...

Its what they believe, its what they follow and its what they feel is right. I dont see how that makes them freaks. Plenty of people believe the same exact things they do.

And as for "whoring"... would they still be doing the show if there wasn't an audience? So which is worse, the "whore" or the people wanting the goods?

[katorade]

Originally Posted by Weirdo890

Okay, I made a stupid and offensive comment and I'm sorry. Really I am. I think perhaps I should stay away from these types of topics.

Hey, I'll give you props for admitting you were wrong and apologizing. You could have said you were joking and rolled your eyes.

[Mini]

Do clowns drive APCs? I don't think it counts as a car anymore.

[Green Eyed Fairy]

Becoming pre-eclampsic with my only set of twins was enough to scare me off from doing it ever again.

She's more woman than I am....that's all I got to say

[bexy]

Originally Posted by mimosa

I totally respect the choice to believe or not to believe. But dearest Bexy, the God I know is a loving one. I do not believe God brings this on people or babies. I was a following Chirstainty when my son got very sick. It was his body that failed him. But God has never failed me. But I also see your point and totally understand. Thanks for sharing how you feel. *hugs*

Sorry Mimi I didn't explain that very well. I understand that is certainly not the god you believe in, I just meant that I don't understand people who can believe in a "vengeful" god.

[LoveBHMS]

Originally Posted by bexy

Sorry Mimi I didn't explain that very well. I understand that is certainly not the god you believe in, I just meant that I don't understand people who can believe in a "vengeful" god.

Why not? Why should He be all good?

There are two basic possibilities in monotheism. One is that He is all good, the other is He is all powerful. You can't believe both in a Judeo-Christian perspective. If you're Jewish like i am, you believe only in the Old Testament, not the New. The New is where Jesus talked about turning the other cheek and saying "an eye for an eye" was no longer applicable. So the Old Testament does have a "vengeful" G-d.

That being said, i don't believe He's taking anything out on the Duggars by having their baby born premature. Babies are born premature all the time, this is not remarkable at all; it's just that it's a high profile situation and it's probably the only 19th child in any family anyone knows.

[Shosh]

Originally Posted by katorade

I think it's nature's way of telling them they're done, or more realistically, they were done at least 5 children ago, and not listening to nature was a stupid idea. Watch her try to pop out another one. Just watch. Can't stand that fucked up family.

That is a horrible thing to say. The Duggars are not bad people. In what way are they fucked up?
Most certainly they have had more children than I or most people would want to have, but that does not make them bad people.

My main concern is for the health and safety of Michelle and her baby, and the wellbeing of her other children.

I am one of seven children, and while that does not come close to the size of the Duggar family, we still faced snide comments from some who thought my father's wish of a large family was against what their idea of an acceptable amount of chidren to have was.

There is a family here in Melbourne called the Waks Family. They are Hassidim, and they have 19 children. All are well, and the mother is also well.

[Qit el-Remel]

Originally Posted by TheIceManVer2.0

present discussion aside, does anyone agree with me that michelle duggar seems either out to lunch or drugged?

She does. And she must have a cast-iron uterus.

And I think what they're doing—have done, even—is irresponsible. But that's not the fault of the baby; and I don't see what's happening to the baby as divine retribution. (But yeah...probably medical evidence that she should stop already.)

[MisterGuy]

By the time they're done, this family will be able to staff a Wal-Mart all by itself. The father can be the greeter in his dotage.

Seriously, though, not cool. This is the equivalent of owning about 9,000 Hummers in terms of resource-selfishness.

[mimosa]

No need to say sorry. I understood what you meant, Bexy. No worries. *lot of hugs*

Originally Posted by bexy

Sorry Mimi I didn't explain that very well. I understand that is certainly not the god you believe in, I just meant that I don't understand people who can believe in a "vengeful" god.

[mimosa]

I feel the same way, Susannah.

Originally Posted by Shosh

That is a horrible thing to say. The Duggars are not bad people. In what way are they fucked up?
Most certainly they have had more children than I or most people would want to have, but that does not make them bad people.

My main concern is for the health and safety of Michelle and her baby, and the wellbeing of her other children.

I am one of seven children, and while that does not come close to the size of the Duggar family, we still faced snide comments from some who thought my father's wish of a large family was against what their idea of an acceptable amount of chidren to have was.

There is a family here in Melbourne called the Waks Family. They are Hassidim, and they have 19 children. All are well, and the mother is also well.

[fat9276]

To actually quote the Bible...

"...for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" Matthew 5:45

meaning...good and bad things happen to both good and bad people...

The Duggars have a lot of kids and to think that nothing bad would ever happen to any of them (i.e. sickness, death, bad grades, pimples etc) is to not think logically. Mrs. Duggar is also getting older so maybe her body isn't as healthy/stable an enviroment anymore as it once was. Whether you like the family or not, the baby IS born and we should all wish him/her and the family well, as we would ANY human beings Losing a child is a heart breaking, devastating loss, whether it is # 30 or # 1

[katorade]

Originally Posted by Shosh

That is a horrible thing to say. The Duggars are not bad people. In what way are they fucked up?
Most certainly they have had more children than I or most people would want to have, but that does not make them bad people.

My main concern is for the health and safety of Michelle and her baby, and the wellbeing of her other children.

I am one of seven children, and while that does not come close to the size of the Duggar family, we still faced snide comments from some who thought my father's wish of a large family was against what their idea of an acceptable amount of chidren to have was.

There is a family here in Melbourne called the Waks Family. They are Hassidim, and they have 19 children. All are well, and the mother is also well.

I can't stand them because they're religious fanatics. They're breeding their own holy army as part of the Quiverfull movement. Women also get to be in the role of a puppy mill breeder and all females are basically treated as second class citizens. Can't really say I feel bad about thinking that's fucked up.

[cheekyjez]

Originally Posted by katorade

I can't stand them because they're religious fanatics. They're breeding their own holy army as part of the Quiverfull movement. Women also get to be in the role of a puppy mill breeder and all females are basically treated as second class citizens. Can't really say I feel bad about thinking that's fucked up.

I'd add -
1) Before they got the TV show deal, they were basically living in poverty. One income + a dozen kids = eating cardboard 2 meals a day. And yes, bringing more kids into that environment is hella irresponsible.

2) Each time they have another kid, Michelle puts her own life in more danger. Aside from the personal risks, which are hers to take if she really wants to, she'd be leaving her surviving kids in a single-parent family, which is... not optimal.

(Before people start making angry posts about how they were raised by a single parent and turned out just fine - I'm happy for you. But raising kids single-handed puts more stress on the remaining parent, decreases the attention they can give the kids, and increases the risk of them going off-track. Sometimes you gotta do it - if one parent needs to work away from home or the parents don't get on (and a substitute 2nd parent isn't available), then you make do as best you could. But getting into that kind of situation just BECAUSE YOU CAN seems fantastically irresponsible to me.)

[Ruby Ripples]

Originally Posted by MissStacie

I will probably get some bad comments on this, but I can't help it. Michelle and JimBob Duggar just had thir 19th child and it was born 15 weeks prematurely. Now, while I don't wish a sick child on ANYONE, don't you think that maybe, just MAYBE this is Gods' way of saying "ok..you've gone forth and procreated enough", and maybe you should call it quits?

Does anyone think that using religion as a validation for excessive family planning is bogus? I'm a Catholic, but a "new" Catholic and believe in abortion and birth control, so I guess I wouldn't use it in my life.

Anyone?

Stacie

If you believe in abortion, then youre not a Catholic as that is one of the things at the very heart of Catholicism. I stopped going to mass many years ago because there were too many "rules" that I did not believe in, and I cannot consider myself a Catholic now. The Catholic churches are full of hypocrites the world over, having abortions and being on birth control, taking the Lord's name in vain, etc. I couldn't be a hypocrite like that, so I left the church.

Where does your "new" Catholic community meet, or did you just make that up?

As for your question, if someone follows their religion, then that is what they believe and they believe they would be sinning to do otherwise. The Duggar children are well cared for, fed, loved, etc. As adults, they can decide whether or not to continue in the lifestyle and that will be interesting to see.

I agree with a previous poster, that it would be as awful to lose baby number 19 as baby number 1. I feel heart sorry for Michelle Duggar having to go through all the pain and worry of her premature baby.

ps. My youngest sister had a baby when she was 16 yrs old. She was a sporty, slim, healthy young woman. She went blind for two days after giving birth, as a result of pre eclampsia. It is NOT always because of multiple pregnancies, age, etc and no way can anyone say it is the direct cause of Michelle Duggar's.

[Saoirse]

Originally Posted by cheekyjez

I'd add -
1) Before they got the TV show deal, they were basically living in poverty. One income + a dozen kids = eating cardboard 2 meals a day. And yes, bringing more kids into that environment is hella irresponsible.

I don't know about "poverty"... I know they own a few commercial properties and they are both licensed real estate agents, and I've read about Jim Bob once owning a car dealership.

They live completely debt free, even before the show. Not sure how much cardboard they eat...

[PeacefulGem]

Originally Posted by Flutterby68

...much of their so-called education is religion based and flies in the face of established scientific facts.

Established scientific facts? Such as the THEORY of evolution?

[Jes]

Originally Posted by katorade

I think it's nature's way of telling them they're done, or more realistically, they were done at least 5 children ago, and not listening to nature was a stupid idea. Watch her try to pop out another one. Just watch. Can't stand that fucked up family.

with all due respect (i think they're kooky too), how can you say she was done at least 5 kids ago? I mean, she had them, w/o probs, and they're all healthy. So... ? I guess I don't understand that line of thinking. You may think they're weird and making bad choices, and that's fine, I'm not quibbling with your opinion, I"m just saying your argument's evidence doesn't hold water.

I think one troubled pregnancy out of 19 (wait, I think she had some distress while carrying a set of twins some time back) is a damned good track record.

Again, I'm agnostic and find religious people pretty creepy and think 19 kids is nutty, but ... for those who say: this is god's way of telling them.... that doesn't make sense. I mean, they've lived according to what they think god wants (in terms of their fertility) their whole lives, so obviously they think this is what he wants here. And if he wants another pregnancy and he wants it to go well, he'll make that happen, and if he wants her fertile years to come to an end now, he will, and expecting that they'll think their God has changed his mind doesn't make a lot of sense.

People who live with that sense of God (he's involved in my daily life, I do his will, etc.) ...well, *I* don't get it. It's not me. But if you live that way, you're in for a penny, in for a pound, you know? You don't change your thinking b/c the pregnancy doesn't go to term.

[steely]

Originally Posted by cheekyjez

I'd add -
1) Before they got the TV show deal, they were basically living in poverty. One income + a dozen kids = eating cardboard 2 meals a day. And yes, bringing more kids into that environment is hella irresponsible.

Perhaps, they are being blessed with the TV show, now they can afford to take care of the children. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[Jes]

I will admit that what's interesting to me about this thread, and many of the reactions, is that it's clear that the average person gets very emotionally involved in things that don't affect him/her. Not really, I mean. And I think we've probably all been on the other side of this game as well, with the 'don't you care about your health? I dont' want to have to pay for your medical bills! Why won't you put your kids on a diet! You know it's unhealthy don't you?!'

A few years back, I met Marilyn Wann and I remember her telling a story that's stuck in my head for a long time. I think she wrote about it in one of her books, if your'e interested. ANyway, she was on the radio being interviewed about the politics of fat, and someone called in and got angry about her eating a donut (I don't recall if she brought them up, or said she liked them, or was eating one on the air or whatever). On and on he went about the donut--it was unhealthy. She was already fat. Fat is bad. Fat is unhealthy. How dare she. Doesn't she see it's wrong? He didn't want to pay for her bills and fat people tax the system!!

etc.

And she flat out asked him: Look, do you really care about my health? I mean, I'm a stranger to you, you don't know me, you never heard of me 5 minutes ago, are you really concerned about my health in a personal way? And he said he guessed he wasn't, not really, b/c he didn't know her.

And she realized it wasn't about her health. It was about the donut. He wanted the donut, or he had issues with the donut or the fact that she was happily eating it and he wasn't/couldn'tdidn't6, or whatever else it was. But like that Anais Nin quote, 'we don't see things the way they are, we see them the way we are.'

I'm not going to accuse anyone of anything here, or label people as in denial about children, or procreation, or health or anything else, but sometimes a donut is just a donut.

[RedVelvet]

I just thank the deity of their choice not everyone feels as they do and does as they do.

Think of the population explosion. Millions of people with bad hair and prairie dresses.

Sure..they can pay for their kids. We all do, in some tiny small way, pay for them, with our sharing of finite resources. And, no, I didn't ask to be here, and if I were completely honest, would be happy to leave and let them have mine, if I didn't think it would hurt people who care for me. I'm not finding the ride on this planet as satisfying as some.

Again...thank goodness we don't all feel and do as they do. How lucky they are...that we don't.

[RedVelvet]

Originally Posted by Jes

And she flat out asked him: Look, do you really care about my health? I mean, I'm a stranger to you, you don't know me, you never heard of me 5 minutes ago, are you really concerned about my health in a personal way? And he said he guessed he wasn't, not really, b/c he didn't know her.

And she realized it wasn't about her health. It was about the donut. He wanted the donut, or he had issues with the donut or the fact that she was happily eating it and he wasn't/couldn'tdidn't6, or whatever else it was. But like that Anais Nin quote, 'we don't see things the way they are, we see them the way we are.'

I'm not going to accuse anyone of anything here, or label people as in denial about children, or procreation, or health or anything else, but sometimes a donut is just a donut.

Yes...true. It was about the donut. That and that many people don't like fat. Health was always a bullshit argument.


Still ...I'm just glad people aren't eating 20 donuts a day...they might be scarce then..and I wouldn't get mine.

heh.

[MissStacie]

Originally Posted by Ruby Ripples

If you believe in abortion, then youre not a Catholic as that is one of the things at the very heart of Catholicism. I stopped going to mass many years ago because there were too many "rules" that I did not believe in, and I cannot consider myself a Catholic now. The Catholic churches are full of hypocrites the world over, having abortions and being on birth control, taking the Lord's name in vain, etc. I couldn't be a hypocrite like that, so I left the church.

While I stop my self from being very offended by this statement, I'll reply by saying that I converted to Catholicism when I was 22 years old, so THAT is why I consider myself a "new" Catholic.

What you are describing is being a devout Catholic, which I will most certainly admit I am not. I am very proud and mostly private about my religion and usually won't bring it up because I feel that what people choose to believe in is thier choice and I would never push my own choice on anyone else.

Where does your "new" Catholic community meet, or did you just make that up?

I am certainly not in the habit of "making up" religious groups to serve my own purpose, this comment is entirely uncalled for.

As for your question, if someone follows their religion, then that is what they believe and they believe they would be sinning to do otherwise. The Duggar children are well cared for, fed, loved, etc. As adults, they can decide whether or not to continue in the lifestyle and that will be interesting to see.

You will see that I never said that they were not provided for, loved, cared for etc. I've never criticized their parenting skills.

I agree with a previous poster, that it would be as awful to lose baby number 19 as baby number 1. I feel heart sorry for Michelle Duggar having to go through all the pain and worry of her premature baby.

Oh hell, as I said before, I wouldn't wish a sick child, an illness on anyone. I have lost a child, so I know what that pain is like and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

ps. My youngest sister had a baby when she was 16 yrs old. She was a sporty, slim, healthy young woman. She went blind for two days after giving birth, as a result of pre eclampsia. It is NOT always because of multiple pregnancies, age, etc and no way can anyone say it is the direct cause of Michelle Duggar's.

Listen, the point I was trying to make is that sometimes God (or whatever Higher Power you believe in) gives us signs in everyday life to lead us to make certain choices. We may not know what those are at the time, but eventually we get to know what they are. I'm only saying that maybe this might be a "sign" that any further procreating might want to be discussed THOROUGHLY, and not just assumed that Michelle will want to put her body and another child through anything less than routine.

[RedVelvet]

Originally Posted by PeacefulGem

Established scientific facts? Such as the THEORY of evolution?

Ok....This is an example of not knowing that "theory" means, in this instance, in scientific usage... its something different than the idea that it's just an idea.

It's not speculation. Its facts proven, along with the idea that more FACTS will be revealed as we do not have the sum total of knowledge yet....this is why it is still called "theory"...rather than LAW.

This is a pet peeve of mine...and its often used badly as an argument. I'm sorry, but this theory is not theory in your usual definition of the term, and there is an enormous amount of data to back that up.


Stephen Jay Gould (emphasis mine):

"Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

[Tau]

The Duggars *iz ded from laffing* Anyway - why do you care if they have 5 children or 20 children? None of the kids are starving, they seem mostly emotionally stable. What Mrs Duggars does to her reproductive system is her business, and to claim that God is trying to give them a message by making a baby sick - that's nonsense. Live and let live.