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Old 02-17-2010, 03:07 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by joswitch View Post
Deja vu, anyone? Oh look, it's the same old "true love is THIS and anything else is shallow" dogma... *sigh* love is not a policy statement, or a fortune cookie motto... ...I wonder if all the people who say you should support your lover no matter what they want to do: Would you enable them in the choice of 24/7 idleness? Or 365 day drinking? How about taking heroin? There's plenty of evidence that SOME forms/extents of weight loss are, indeed, harmful, sometimes fatal to you... (in contrast to HAES)... Why would you support someone you love in self destruction? ...
Are you serious? Equating weight loss with self destruction is just overkill. Nobody has said anything about starvation or even surgery (although some people do choose that and are happy they did). Eating veggies and moving more are neither harmful nor fatal. What everyone has said is that they'd support healthy and positive ways to lose weight, nobody said they'd enable anyone to take fucking heroin.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by thatgirl08 View Post
Sometimes weight loss is necessary.
Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.

Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.

Every weight loss diet is a fad diet. None of them have been shown to consistently make fat people into thin people. None. Weight loss is just about the least likely outcome of trying to lose weight. Only thing less likely might be actually improving your health, since weight loss hasn't been shown to improve health even among the limited number of people who maintain weight loss for a few years.

For over half a century, the extent of treatment options offered fat patients have been almost universally weight loss focused. Something that during that time has been heavily researched with no progress towards making that treatment effective. I can't look at this and say, "well, i guess some people just need to lose weight". I look at it and I say this system has profoundly failed the health needs of fat people. Telling us to be not-fat people has not worked. The certainty people have over it offers nothing to detract from a record of complete and abject failure. Wanting to lose weight has never been productive. Hopes, dreams, and wishes are no reason to continue pursuing something with a track record of such utter uselessness. Its a tragedy. Why am I supposed to ignore that because some people find fat people unacceptable. Even if just "some" fat people. Even if just themselves. That makes it all the more tragic that they are continually herded down a path that has no productive results to show for itself.

The pursuit of weight loss has not been a constructive one. Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:20 PM   #53
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^^^

This whole post is just short sighted and insulting. Add that to the fact you were responding to a fat person, whose ideas should be listened to and respected, and you dismissed her out of hand. I just think this is an area where we should mostly leave it to fat people to make their own choices and be supportive rather than tell them they're doomed to failure.

People can and do lose weight. Saying all diets are fad diets is ludicrous. A "diet" is a way of eating. You can have a reduced calorie diet, a low sodium diet, a vegetarian diet, a diet based on increased intake of certain foods or food groups, or even a diet aimed at adding weight.

There are any number of situations where weight loss is necessary. Somebody with foot paind or joint problems may simply need to carry less poundage on their frame. Excess fat, depending on where it's stored may compress internal organs and exacerbate conditions like asthma. Weight can affect mobility--this is simple FACT. Unless you are a physician and treating a particular person and their condition, making sweeping generalizations about what will and won't work is foolish.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:54 PM   #54
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Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.

Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.

Every weight loss diet is a fad diet. None of them have been shown to consistently make fat people into thin people. None. Weight loss is just about the least likely outcome of trying to lose weight. Only thing less likely might be actually improving your health, since weight loss hasn't been shown to improve health even among the limited number of people who maintain weight loss for a few years.

For over half a century, the extent of treatment options offered fat patients have been almost universally weight loss focused. Something that during that time has been heavily researched with no progress towards making that treatment effective. I can't look at this and say, "well, i guess some people just need to lose weight". I look at it and I say this system has profoundly failed the health needs of fat people. Telling us to be not-fat people has not worked. The certainty people have over it offers nothing to detract from a record of complete and abject failure. Wanting to lose weight has never been productive. Hopes, dreams, and wishes are no reason to continue pursuing something with a track record of such utter uselessness. Its a tragedy. Why am I supposed to ignore that because some people find fat people unacceptable. Even if just "some" fat people. Even if just themselves. That makes it all the more tragic that they are continually herded down a path that has no productive results to show for itself.

The pursuit of weight loss has not been a constructive one. Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:42 PM   #55
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I'm wondering if either of you realizes how offensive and self serving these comments are.

What somebody does with her body is her business and not yours. Unless you are a qualified medical professional treating a particular fat person, you are not capable of saying what they should do or can do. People lose weight all the time and do so healthfully. Saying all human bodies are the same and respond to various treatments the same is just wrong.

But above all, seeing thin male FAs expounding on the horrors of weight loss is just offensive to a degree i can't even articulate. Sitting in judgement of what somebody is capable of or wants or needs to do with her body is horrible; it's more horrible when you seem to have a vested interest in her body staying a way you like. Until you live in a fat person's body and live their life, don't sit in judgement.

I do think FA have the right to talk about dealing with weight loss in a partner. We even have the right to say we don't like it or wish it didn't happen or are less turned on. We don't have the right to judge anyone's choices to lose weight or to criticize them or to toss hyperbole on them along the lines of "no weight loss efforts are safe or effective."
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Old 02-17-2010, 07:52 PM   #56
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Which is an utterly useless attitude. I'm sick of tired of this being trotted out as a definitive statement when it posits a world which DOES NOT EXIST.

Weight loss is not achievable in a safe or reliable manner. Ever single person who wants to lose weight tells themselves that THEY are doing it in a healthy manner and its just all of those OTHER people who are on the fad diets.

Every weight loss diet is a fad diet. None of them have been shown to consistently make fat people into thin people. None. Weight loss is just about the least likely outcome of trying to lose weight. Only thing less likely might be actually improving your health, since weight loss hasn't been shown to improve health even among the limited number of people who maintain weight loss for a few years.

For over half a century, the extent of treatment options offered fat patients have been almost universally weight loss focused. Something that during that time has been heavily researched with no progress towards making that treatment effective. I can't look at this and say, "well, i guess some people just need to lose weight". I look at it and I say this system has profoundly failed the health needs of fat people. Telling us to be not-fat people has not worked. The certainty people have over it offers nothing to detract from a record of complete and abject failure. Wanting to lose weight has never been productive. Hopes, dreams, and wishes are no reason to continue pursuing something with a track record of such utter uselessness. Its a tragedy. Why am I supposed to ignore that because some people find fat people unacceptable. Even if just "some" fat people. Even if just themselves. That makes it all the more tragic that they are continually herded down a path that has no productive results to show for itself.

The pursuit of weight loss has not been a constructive one. Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.
What are you talking about. There are proven methods for loosing weight.

Any basic nutrition course will teach you that if you spend more calories then you take in, you will loose weight.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:29 PM   #57
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Rationalizing that everyone else's pursuit was wrong while yours is gonna be right is just rationalizing. Eating healthy food and maintaining moderate activity IS a good thing that HAS shown productive results. What it hasn't shown is to be reliably effective for losing weight. So measuring the success of such activities with weight loss is dangerous and counterproductive. They are good things to do, but not for the purpose of losing weight. That motivation will only make such healthy measures seem like a failure when weight loss goals are not achieved. I cannot support that. Not for a partner, not for myself, not for anyone.
You know, I get that Dims isn't a place that's ever going to support discussion of or tolerance for dieting with a goal of weight loss. I support the overall concept of HAES, if not the nuts 'n bolts of certain parts of it. Like you, I believe that most diets are a recipe for failure.

But much of what you've written is ... extreme. And it runs contrary to what medical science suggests. And it seems, at the heart of things, to come from a place that appears rather self-serving. Sincerely, I mean this: I believe that this attitude actually harms size acceptance, because otherwise reasonable people will shut down at what appears to run contrary to common sense, far less established medical fact.

Your body? Your temple. You get to decide what to do with it, and nobody should make us feel that we're less than perfectly fine just as we are. We should not be discriminated against. We should not have to tolerate bigotry from doctors, from employers, from strangers with obnoxiously vocal opinions. We should acknowledge that most diets are inherently harmful, but that it is possible -- if necessary, or even if we simply choose it -- to make healthier food choices, to find some way to incorporate movement into our daily lives. Ignoring scientific fact regarding the possible co-morbidities related to higher weights? Unreasonable, at best.

There are scenarios in which weight loss is necessary to prolong or even sustain one's life. This isn't fat bigotry, this isn't ignorance, this isn't even up for debate. It is fact. I very much hope that you never have to face such a scenario with a loved one. I have, and as a social worker who spent the last year working with critically ill patients, I've seen things that broke my heart. Particularly grueling was a dying man in his early 50's with end-stage CHF who could not get a heart transplant, in large part because of his extreme weight. If you'd given his family the speech that you've given above ... well. I think you can imagine the outcome.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:30 PM   #58
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What are you talking about. There are proven methods for loosing weight.

Any basic nutrition course will teach you that if you spend more calories then you take in, you will loose weight.
See, this is what I'm talking about it. The notion of just how simple this all is. Why a basic nutrition course said it. Its just math!

Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world. These people feel justified in hating fat people because they presume they just must not have tried or cared to try or known to try. They think if they just keep shouting at us, we'll lose weight since its obviously so simple. Any fat person must either not know any better or not care, just justifying their sense or moral superiority over fat people.

It just doesn't work like that. Nearly every fat person you will ever meet has spent a considerable amount of their life trying to lose weight. In the long run, it never worked. Oh, losing weight they can likely do. Keeping it off is what they can't. Their body adapts and resists. It becomes harder and harder to keep losing weight and then it starts coming back on. For most, more than had been lost to begin with. Blaming these people hasn't worked. Blaming their willpower, their intelligence, their desire is all a cruel lie. They did not fail. Rather, they were failed by a culture of false promises that surrounds the weight loss culture. The promise that weight loss will make them happy. That it will make them healthy. That it is even achievable. This culture persists by turning all blame inward. Fat people deserve better. We've been failed by this mindset, and we deserve better. As a fat person and as an FA, I want no part in this.

There is no moral superiority in weight loss. If it offends people that not everyone will concede to the righteousness of weight loss, that's too bad. Its a culture that has done nothing for fat people, and I refuse to be guilted into any participation in it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:27 PM   #59
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See, this is what I'm talking about it. The notion of just how simple this all is. Why a basic nutrition course said it. Its just math!

Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world. These people feel justified in hating fat people because they presume they just must not have tried or cared to try or known to try. They think if they just keep shouting at us, we'll lose weight since its obviously so simple. Any fat person must either not know any better or not care, just justifying their sense or moral superiority over fat people.

It just doesn't work like that. Nearly every fat person you will ever meet has spent a considerable amount of their life trying to lose weight. In the long run, it never worked. Oh, losing weight they can likely do. Keeping it off is what they can't. Their body adapts and resists. It becomes harder and harder to keep losing weight and then it starts coming back on. For most, more than had been lost to begin with. Blaming these people hasn't worked. Blaming their willpower, their intelligence, their desire is all a cruel lie. They did not fail. Rather, they were failed by a culture of false promises that surrounds the weight loss culture. The promise that weight loss will make them happy. That it will make them healthy. That it is even achievable. This culture persists by turning all blame inward. Fat people deserve better. We've been failed by this mindset, and we deserve better. As a fat person and as an FA, I want no part in this.

There is no moral superiority in weight loss. If it offends people that not everyone will concede to the righteousness of weight loss, that's too bad. Its a culture that has done nothing for fat people, and I refuse to be guilted into any participation in it.
I am not saying weight loss is easy. I certainly know that is is not. I take a bit of offense at the notion that I am somehow justifying bigotry against fat people by suggesting that there is a science behind weight gain and weight loss. I am just saying that there is a science to how fat comes and goes on our bodies. It is biology.

Fad diets will almost always fail, becuase mother nature simply states that each pound of fat represents roughly 3500 calories not burned, and if we burn those calories, the fat will disapear. When we consume 3500 calories and do not use them, they become body fat. It really is that simple. How quickly and easily a certain individual uses up calories is different from person to person.
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Old 02-18-2010, 05:34 AM   #60
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Except, the human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway.
True, but also true that some people can and do lose weight and do so in a healthful manner and also if every human body works differently it's no more ok to say that everyone can't lose weight than it is to say that everyone can.

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There is no moral superiority in weight loss. If it offends people that not everyone will concede to the righteousness of weight loss, that's too bad. Its a culture that has done nothing for fat people, and I refuse to be guilted into any participation in it.
Who's talking about moral superiority? Nobody. The OP asked about mental and physical health both of which can be affected by weight. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Nobody is talking about righteousness or saying it's ok to tell somebody to lose weight or to suggest how to do it, but if somebody wants to lose weight i personally think you can and should be supportive. Not 'righteous' but supportive. Suggesting something is impossible, that they are doomed to failure, or suggesting their reasons for weight loss are not acceptale are all really disrespectful and not appropriate.

I have to duck out of this thread. It really feels just wrong to have discussions about what fat people can and can't do. These discussions should be had by fat people themselves, not FAs who are always going to come off looking as if their attitudes are self serving.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:52 AM   #61
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...The human body doesn't work like that. Not every human body, anyway. Fat bigotry is justified by people who believe exactly what you suggested. That weight loss is the simplest thing in the world...
Tell me about it. I'm trying to lose weight, and after several months of losing about 2 pounds a week, I've plateaued at about 250. But my dad keeps asking me why I am not "pulling double digits" like the men on The Biggest Loser. I try explaining to him that not only do they have much more weight to lose than I do, they work out 6 hours a day, live on a calorie-restricted diet, and have constant medical supervision to protect them in case they exert their way into a heart attack. It's not a lifestyle I'd choose for anybody. But he thinks I can lose heroic amounts of weight by pure willpower alone... whatever.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:46 PM   #62
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There are scenarios in which weight loss is necessary to prolong or even sustain one's life. This isn't fat bigotry, this isn't ignorance, this isn't even up for debate. It is fact.
I believe that this is the point of this thread, discussing such situations.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:10 PM   #63
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I believe that this is the point of this thread, discussing such situations.
Yep. I think that this is probably right.

Its interesting to see some the dynamics of the wider fatosphere play out in this thread... examined from an FA perspective as opposed to the the way this has been discussed on shapely prose or, more notably, big fat blog. I don't think that there should be a two-tier size acceptance movement but I do think that there are, loosely speaking, two tiers of fatness whereby the health of fat people of a lower weight is far more connected to lifestyle than size. Conversely, the category of fat people that are (again loosely) above this weight, whose health outcomes become limited by size as much as/more than lifestyle.

The connection between fatness and health has been a subject of a lot of personal research and I have definitely come to a lot of the same conclusions that much of the rest of the fatosphere... and the size acceptance movement... have come to regarding weight loss and health. i.e the lifestyle change leads to the positive health improvements rather than the weight loss. Nothing shows this more clearly than the liposuction vs HAES study whereby the long-term health of two cohorts of subjects was compared. The first group all had 30lbs of fat removed through lipo and the other group were put on a HAES-lifestyle regimen. The second group lost about 5lbs on average over the test period, but their health markers all improved dramatically. The key thing about this study was that the first group showed no changes to any health markers. This information is only one of many non-industry studies that show, again and again, that weight and (physical) health are relatively independent factors. It is only once people get into the >BMI 40 range that a statistically significant correlation becomes evident (albeit not a dramatic correlation).

Of course, I am only talking about the physical side to health. The mental side is mostly a different matter but it can certainly overlap into the domain of physical health considerations too. I think that it is this side to situations of weight loss that I can support as a friend or a partner... even if I've done the medical research and know that (for small/mid - size BBWs at least) the publically accepted risks to physical health are wildly overstated/ intentionally falsified.

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Old 02-18-2010, 01:53 PM   #64
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Threads like this remind me that critical thinking is a skill that's damn near extinct. I blame the parents.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:19 PM   #65
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Y'know there are some people out there who think if you eat a balanced diet and are active your body will settle where it's meant to.


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Old 02-18-2010, 02:41 PM   #66
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I would help my partner and support her at doing whatever she felt she wanted or needed to do.

That isn't some co-dependent bullshit, that is coming from someone who feels that it's simply what partner's do. Now, as long as their needs don't conflict with my needs or moral code, then why not support them?

I don't have a need to maintain or grow my partner. I have a NEED to keep her happy and healthy, so she will:

1. Remain with me her entire life (or mine)
2. Maintain a quality of life consitent with how she wants to live.

Key word here people is PARTNER. This is not someone who's a one night stand, or someone you fantasize about on the net. Add emotion to the equation, and you might just end up agreeing with me.
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:08 PM   #67
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@lovesBHM - I make the comparison between other self-destructive pursuits and wildly popular sub 500cal-a-day weight loss schemes like Lighter Life... That have been found by sober medical pros like y'know -CORONERS - to have killed people... And caused other serious damage... Similarly the roll call of suffering and ill health CAUSED by WLS is vast and growing daily... I would NOT support a partner in pursuing such a damaging course of action...
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:14 PM   #68
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@sandiega - no it's not that simple... Go have a dig on the main board for the thread where I show a break down of the energy balance systems of the human body and how they adapt to caloric reduction...
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:15 PM   #69
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Y'know there are some people out there who think if you eat a balanced diet and are active your body will settle where it's meant to.


SHOCK and AWE
That's what HAES is. I think a lot people seem to forget that.
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:24 PM   #70
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I am not saying weight loss is easy. I certainly know that is is not. I take a bit of offense at the notion that I am somehow justifying bigotry against fat people by suggesting that there is a science behind weight gain and weight loss. I am just saying that there is a science to how fat comes and goes on our bodies. It is biology.

Fad diets will almost always fail, becuase mother nature simply states that each pound of fat represents roughly 3500 calories not burned, and if we burn those calories, the fat will disapear. When we consume 3500 calories and do not use them, they become body fat. It really is that simple. How quickly and easily a certain individual uses up calories is different from person to person.
It really isn't that simple at all. Your body is constantly burning calories to do everything from maintaining body temperature, regulating your breathing, to making your hair and nails grow. That's a complex number in itself. Daily metabolism can be harmed by even the smallest things too, which includes poor diet practices that can accumulate.

That being said: I know certain changes in "Diet" can breed weight loss. But it's not as simple as "In" and "Out." If that were the case, then I would have lost weight in basic training (Which I lost none, despite working out everyday and eating at the very most per day five out of six weeks: 1500 calories). My waist got smaller (29 for a few days lol), but I was 163 when I began, and 163 when I left.

I personally am not really picking either extreme though. I think HAES works for a whole lot more people than it's given credit for, but I don't think weight loss is never the answer either.
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:32 PM   #71
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@james - good post. For the record: I support and would always support a partner pursuing HAES, eating better food, moving more, building strength and mobility, pursuing actual health as a goal... ....I'd also support a partner trying to lose 10 - 15% or so of body weight, i.e. 20lbs to 50lbs say... as part of their health drive (evidence exists that loss of 20% or more of adult body mass REDUCES life expectancy) I'd particularly support such efforts to lose where diabetes control was an issue... Diabetes being THE serious disease with the strongest evidence of some correlation to high weight, and there's evidence that small to moderate weight loss can really help blood sugar control/eliminate the very damaging symptoms of diabetes... I would NOT support a partner in extreme, rapid weight loss by dangerous methods. And yes, it's always your own choice what you do with your body, but it's other people's choice whether or not they feel able or right (or not) in supporting your choice...
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:40 PM   #72
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@thatgirl08 - not so long ago the dogma on true love was "love me as you find me" = all good... Lately, the dogma seems to have changed to "love me as what/whoever I choose to turn myself into, no matter how extreme" = not so cool...
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:41 PM   #73
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That's what HAES is. I think a lot people seem to forget that.
Yuh, I am a huge (lol) advocate of HAES. It is seriously the only way to go, in my opinion.
......i say this as i am eating pizza and drinking soda.

WHATEVAH
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:44 PM   #74
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... Diabetes being THE serious disease with the strongest evidence of some correlation to high weight, and there's evidence that small to moderate weight loss can really help blood sugar control/eliminate the very damaging symptoms of diabetes...
True. I wonder about the paucity of evidence linking correlation with weight loss. What I mean is that the medical assumption is that the weight loss (as opposed to the lifestyle change itself that brought about the weight loss) is the reason for the improvement. Until that correlation is shown to be causative, prescribing weight loss (via pills or lipsuction for instance) might be just as ineffective as telling a smoker with yellow teeth that dental whitening is an appropriate treatment for the prevention of lung cancer because the two things are correlated...if you see what I mean?
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:51 PM   #75
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@lovesBHM - I make the comparison between other self-destructive pursuits and wildly popular sub 500cal-a-day weight loss schemes like Lighter Life... That have been found by sober medical pros like y'know -CORONERS - to have killed people... And caused other serious damage... Similarly the roll call of suffering and ill health CAUSED by WLS is vast and growing daily... I would NOT support a partner in pursuing such a damaging course of action...
What a ridiculous post.

You're saying you equate "weight loss" with a sub 500 calorie per day diet? So that is what you had in mind and were arguing against knowing full well that nobody on this board was thinking in those terms. Even the VLCD (very low calorie diets) that are written up in medical journals and the mainstream media are more than twice that, typically between 1000 and 1200 calories per day. As you no doubt know there is a world of difference between supporting somebody in healthful weight loss endeavors like eating more vegetables and exercising and eating less than 500 calories per day. When you lump the two together you just come off as reactionary and over the top.
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