Was Bush right about the Patriot Act?

[DELIMAN092262]

President Obama signs an one year extension of the Patriot Act without changes.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...ithout-reforms

Does he support the law? Does Obama think Bush was right? Seem like it to me.

[Chandler Bing]

Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262

President Obama signs an one year extension of the Patriot Act without changes.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...ithout-reforms

Does he support the law? Does Obama think Bush was right? Seem like it to me.

Remember though it's just some of the aspects of the Act...

[Miss Vickie]

Actually, according to the article you quoted, he didn't extend the Patriot Act without changes, but rather...

President Obama signed a one-year extension of three sections of the USA Patriot Act on Saturday without any new limits on the measures that many liberal groups and Democrats said were necessary to safeguard American civil liberties.

See the difference? It's not extended without change, but rather only three sections (of how many? I don't know but I know it's a big, big bill) of it. His action is actually consistent with what he's said before, that it needs to be "dialed back", not completely overturned.

Do I think that there needs to be more protection for privacy? Oh hell yes. But your post was a little disingenuous because he didn't in fact keep the entire act, but only three parts of it.

There's also the issue that he has to work with the legislative branch of government and they hugely supported it (to the tune of 315 vs 97 in the House). See how Bipartisan he's being? Isn't that what you guys wanted?

[cheekyjez]

No. And neither were the 99 Senators who voted for it.

[Imp]

Largely so. The Courts have upheld most of it, and those parts that weren't were fixed by the Congress.

[superodalisque]

no he wasn't correct since the original patriot act seemed a total subversion of the rule of law which is THE thing that is so powerful about the US. the very idea that the US is generally more lawful and has a sense of justice uncommon in many of the countries the patriot act will be applied toward is a very powerful tool. even if we are in a period of war we have to be very careful not to appear justify the assertions of groups like al queda. wars are not only fought with bullets but also in people's hearts and minds.

[frankman]

The patriot act as a whole is a scary bit of legislation, subverting the rights of citizens. In parts it might have some merit, and possibly do some good.

Was Bush (and the 99 senators) right? No.

[DELIMAN092262]

Originally Posted by frankman

The patriot act as a whole is a scary bit of legislation, subverting the rights of citizens. In parts it might have some merit, and possibly do some good.

Was Bush (and the 99 senators) right? No.

So Bush and the 99 senators (from both parties) were wrong. By extending the law for one year and thereby giving it his blessing, is Obama also wrong?

[Chandler Bing]

Originally Posted by frankman

The patriot act as a whole is a scary bit of legislation, subverting the rights of citizens. In parts it might have some merit, and possibly do some good.

Was Bush (and the 99 senators) right? No.

It was never intended to " Subvert the rights of citizens" It was created to expand the abilities of the agencies set to protect it's Citizens. It also created and opened up funding for victim's families as a result of terrorism..BOTH FOREIGN and DOMESTIC!

Ya know when it affected someone? When there was sufficient evidence to suspect that person as a person of interest for Terrorist acts both foreign and domestic. illegal..YES illegal acts. I love how people in the ACLU cry about...oh the government is listening to my conversation...That's a great spin for shows like NCIS and your favorite thriller that you read over the summer.

Are people that arrogant and self important that they believe that the government wants to know that much about you? Guilty conscience perhaps..but I doubt your conversation with you BFF or drinking buddy about Mr/Miss XYZ is of real importance. People bitched about the government being able, if warranted...and no I didn't say with a warrant, to view records..sorry..I was a library and I borrowed three books on serial killers for a paper in college; is that important? Most likely not, but it could be an important clue if I also posted questionable videos on Youtube, PUBLIC VENUE, and if I had other suspicious activities/actions linked to me...it could all lead to nothing...and they discard what they found....would I ever know? What if they've done that already? I'm not trying to drum up McCarthy visions and the "Communist witch hunts"....but it makes for an interesting read!

To date there has been only one lawsuit against the act..which amazingly was by the ACLU yo yos and was dropped after the provisions they bitched about were amended.


Final thought. When it was first written, after 9/11, It was developed to protect the general public. It was a reactionary measure to prevent another terrorist act...and it was originally meant to cover a large venue of acts against the PEOPLE of the United States...Guess what..sometimes we need to be protected from ourselves. If people want to dream up visions of vast server farms holding your conversations about the color underwear you have on, or what you really think of Aunt Sue's dress...fine. But I'd rather have the agencies created to protect me have the capabilities available to them to do their job. We all love 24 and watching Jack Bauer run around doing whatever he can...damn the results of his actions...it's intense..it's suspense. I don't think the real life agents and officers, and I knew a few, had such an active lifestyle..

[superodalisque]

its naive to think that people with an opportunity will never invade your right to privacy.

[Chandler Bing]

Originally Posted by superodalisque

its naive to think that people with an opportunity will never invade your right to privacy.

WOW....first time thinking that for me. I mean being a victim of identiy theft, which I have been, and I never thought of the risk + Opportunity + ability = action.


To think that everyone is out to invade your right to privacy, owership, and freedom is paranoia....and here I thought only Neocons were those type of people.

[frankman]

Originally Posted by DELIMAN092262

So Bush and the 99 senators (from both parties) were wrong. By extending the law for one year and thereby giving it his blessing, is Obama also wrong?

Exactly. Although I do not know if he signed and agreed with the Patriot Act in its entirety, if Obama did it would be hypocrytical of me to say he isn't wrong.

Frankly I think that almost half of the critique Obama is receiving has some core of truth to it. The fact that I was very much against Bush does not automatically mean I'm pro-bama.

[Chandler Bing]

abject hatred and blind following leads to bad bills....this one and the controversy behind/before it is no different....many are against it because HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED is tied to it...because HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED must have sat up and wrote the act himself.


People are so willing to stand against "big brother" with this act, and are the same ones touting how much life will improve with Government ran...oh sorry....sponsored Health Care...it's humorous really...

[frankman]

Originally Posted by Chandler Bing

People are so willing to stand against "big brother" with this act, and are the same ones touting how much life will improve with Government ran...oh sorry....sponsored Health Care...it's humorous really...

But surely you understand that those are two totally different manifestations of government control?

[Chandler Bing]

Originally Posted by frankman

But surely you understand that those are two totally different manifestations of government control?

Yes I understand...but you'd be surprised how many people compare and contrast the two..

[KittyKitten]

He wasn't right about anything.......the man is an epic failure

[superodalisque]

Originally Posted by Chandler Bing

WOW....first time thinking that for me. I mean being a victim of identiy theft, which I have been, and I never thought of the risk + Opportunity + ability = action.


To think that everyone is out to invade your right to privacy, owership, and freedom is paranoia....and here I thought only Neocons were those type of people.

i don't think that everyone is but only some people are. take a look at the types of things that happened during the Nixon administration. some invasions of privacy were even aided and carried out by the attorney general of the united states. that included looking at tax records ad breaking into a psychologist's office to retrieve private medical records among many other things. and those actions were actually against the law.

i'm pretty optimistic about people in general as well. but i don't think people are super human. they have faults and sometimes they show them when under pressure. it might be especially tempting to someone under political pressure of some kind who has access to this information. after all who would have thought someone who is supposed to be a patriot of this country would release the identity of an american operative and cause the deaths of other americans also working as operatives abroad? it happens. we need to be careful.

[Chandler Bing]

Originally Posted by superodalisque

i don't think that everyone is but only some people are. take a look at the types of things that happened during the Nixon administration. some invasions of privacy were even aided and carried out by the attorney general of the united states. that included looking at tax records ad breaking into a psychologist's office to retrieve private medical records among many other things. and those actions were actually against the law.

i'm pretty optimistic about people in general as well. but i don't think people are super human. they have faults and sometimes they show them when under pressure. it might be especially tempting to someone under political pressure of some kind who has access to this information. after all who would have thought someone who is supposed to be a patriot of this country would release the identity of an american operative and cause the deaths of other americans also working as operatives abroad? it happens. we need to be careful.

ugh could this be another Cheney conspiracy jab?

[superodalisque]

Originally Posted by Chandler Bing

ugh could this be another Cheney conspiracy jab?

this isn't about playing politics. who cares about conspiracy? that isn't the point. even Robert Novak couldn't deny he outed the woman. it doesn't matter if Dick Cheney engineered the leak or not. the fact is that is was leaked and it goes directly to the issue that such things are a possibility that american citizens should be protected from and the patriot act makes it more difficult to do that in certain conditions.