Any Other BHM's trying to lose weight?

Discussion in 'BHM/FFA' started by michiganbhm, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. Oct 28, 2013 #221

    LeoGibson

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    the CliffsNotes version is, a ketogenic diet is one where you pretty much eat all protein all the time.you going into ketosis by keeping your carb count very low so that your body burns your stored fat for energy.there is more to it than that obviously but that's the quick take on it Think an extreme version of Atkins.
     
  2. Oct 28, 2013 #222

    Geodetic_Effect

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    To get to a state of full on ketosis you have to be under approximately 30g of carbohyrdates per day. There is obviously some variation here, but staying under that number will guarantee that anyone will end up in ketosis. 1,000 kcals in twinkies is still around 180g of carbs. I'm sure you would be in some level of ketosis that low, also depending when you ate them. For example, if you ate all of the twinkies at one time at the end of the day you would get more into a ketogenic state than if you spread them out throughout the day. You could always play around with it and measure the ketone bodies in your urine to get an idea of where you are.

    Whenever your caloric intake drops that low, it will put you in a different hormonal state than going ketogenic with larger consumption. If your 1,000 kcals comes from all meat, you will definitely be in a state of full ketosis, but your body is still going to have a starvation hormonal response which is what you are trying to avoid with this type of diet in the first place.

    For me, the point of doing a ketogenic diet is so you don't have to starve yourself, you don't have to have a lack of energy, you don't have to feel like shit, you don't have to lose muscle and you will lose fat quickly and keep it off. You can sustain a high level of training and gain muscle. Starving yourself is just silly to me.

    I actually do a version where you cycle in carbs periodically, again, to optimize hormonal response and avoid plateaus.

     
  3. Oct 29, 2013 #223

    bigmac

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    Actually its you who doesn't understand the "science". No one ever claimed that low calorie diets don't work in the short-term. However, they are not long-term solutions. Indeed such dieting has very negative effects that have been repeatedly noted in the scientific literature.

    The formula for loosing weight without damaging your health is not rocket science -- lots of exercise and a reasonable amount of high quality food. However, its not so easy for most people to actually do this in today's America.
     
  4. Oct 30, 2013 #224

    hedonistthinker

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    the scientific literature is clear here.

    1. long term fasting throughtout lifespan is life-extending. this has been shown in many animals, who on low calorie diets have 30 percent longer lifespans. this seems to be because certain survival genes are activated when this happens but this is still speculative. this of course is more difficult to test in humans for ethical reasons but the general trend cannot be denied.

    2. when patients are VERY mordbidly obese and require weight loss and bypass and the like are not an option ( most of the time, most doctors wont operate on 600 pound people as this has its own new set of risks) they will be put on very low calorie diets of 800-1200. most of the weight vanished rather quickly. if they do gain the weight back, its mostly because they regained their caloric habits afterwards

    3. the success of by-pass surgery speaks for itself. its based on the low calorie model since, minimizing stomach size minimizes amount of calories capable of being absorbed per meal, making it very difficult to gain weight.most complications of bypass involve the actual tightness of the band and not the weight loss. in fact, rapid weight loss by bypass in many patients have put their diabetes in remission

    4. long term weight loss success depends on lifestyle change, but you are exaggerating its difficulty. if you look at japan or the many countries in europe with low obesity rates, or even the U.S in the past, being overweight or obese was/is fairly rare. it doesnt require athletic level of commitment.
     
  5. Oct 30, 2013 #225

    hedonistthinker

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    ketosis could be effective, for a simple reason. the body is built to use carbs as calorie fuel best. fats and protein are not the bodies preferred fuel and in converting these 2 sources to energy, loses a certain percent just on that transition (i believe form fat to energy it can be as much as 22 percent but im not sure) if you are on a strict ketosis diet where 80 percent of your calories are protein, you can be losing 0.5-1 calorie per gram of protein in the exchange (protein is 4 calories per gram). and thats a significant calorie loss right there.
     
  6. Oct 30, 2013 #226

    Geodetic_Effect

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    You do NOT want to eat a diet of 80% protein. That will damage your kidneys.

    I've gone over this before in here, those calorie burning figures and estimates are fallacious. They are based on taking a single fuel source, putting it in a closed system, igniting it, then measuring the heat energy given off. Guess what? Your body doesn't use fuel like that. Your body also doesn't sit there at all times converting every available unit of energy in a food to fat. Hormones direct what happens to that fuel. If in ketosis, with an adequate calorie intake, your body will not store fat. It just is not able to, rendering calorie restriction pointless.
     
  7. Oct 30, 2013 #227

    Gingembre

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    Makes sense. Thanks guys :)
     
  8. Nov 2, 2013 #228

    bigmac

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    What is it they say about a little bit of knowledge?


    Mice live longer. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to work with primates.

    http://www.nature.com/news/calorie-restriction-falters-in-the-long-run-1.11297


    No one ever said very low calorie diets didn't work in the short term. However, their long-term effectiveness is actually worse than zero since they have a negative effect on health. Preoperative calorie restriction facilitates surgery its not a long-term cure.


    You're mixing up surgeries. "Bypass" operations don't have "bands". There are multiple types of WLS. Some surgeries create malabsorption, some restrict eating, and some do both.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery

    Thus your analysis is misleadingly simplistic. Surgeries that severe nerves associated with hunger appear to be the most effective. Indeed the extremely dramatic decrease in hunger associated with some types of WLS (i.e. gastric sleeve) is likely responsible for a significant portion of the observed results. Without this short circuiting of hunger response WLS won't be nearly as effective.

    Life-long lifestyle change is exactly what's required for a fat person to force his or her body thin. Maintaining the status quo is always easier than forcing something to a different level. The level of "commitment" required for a thin person to remain thin is an order of magnitude less than that required to force a fat body thin. You're right that it doesn't take that much effort to keep an ordinary Japanese person thin. However, that's not what's being discussed here. The more appropriate analogy would be the effort to would take to get a sumo wrestler thin for the rest of his life.
     
  9. Nov 6, 2013 #229

    Geodetic_Effect

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  10. Nov 6, 2013 #230

    Yakatori

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    Hard to say, really...

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    Maybe a more direct or simple approach would be for you to just list, side by side and approximately, what you eat in a normal day vis a vis how much physical work you actually do.

    So, some people will just get a sense of what 30kg of carbs looks-like. Or sufficient protein for, say, +300lbs "fat-guy" that's lifting some weights and exercising regularly.
     
  11. Nov 6, 2013 #231

    Geodetic_Effect

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    I pretty much eat meat, eggs, and organs on a normal day. Some greens and a bit of other vegetables.

     
  12. Nov 7, 2013 #232

    bigmac

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    If it works for you who am I to argue. However, many people, myself included, do not function well if we don't consume sufficient fruits and vegetables. To function at peak capacity I need to consume at 40% of my calories from fruits, vegetables, and nuts. When I don't I don't function well mentally or physically. If I needed to categorize I guess I eat a cross between a paleo and Mediterranean diet.

    That said I agree with you that the "war on fat" has been totally misguided and counterproductive. I eat as many eggs as I feel like (varies greatly), red meat, and whole milk. I don't have a sweet tooth and don't drink sweetened beverages. However, there's no way I'm ever going to give up the occasional plate of blueberry pancakes.
     
  13. Nov 7, 2013 #233

    Geodetic_Effect

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    You will feel like shit during the initial transition, It takes 7 to 9 days to get into ketosis. Days 4 and 5 can be rough, but if you just deal with it and get past it, you don't feel like shit anymore.

    Also, once in ketosis, you can still occasionally smash things like blueberry pancakes without any negative effects.

     
  14. Nov 15, 2013 #234

    Geodetic_Effect

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    This all day.

    arn55868_10200333919869763_1835825655_n.jpg
     
  15. Nov 19, 2013 #235

    Yakatori

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    Hard to say, really...

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    But, correct me if I'm wrong, that's because...in the ketosis-state, protein/amino acids are (also) being used as a significant form of fuel...

    How do you, basically, know that you're in that state? Does it really require such sophisticated (e.g testing urine) analysis? Or can you pretty much do-it just managing diet and work-load? I'm trying to get a sense of how it's so different from someone who just limits sugar & carbohydrates, and as often finds themselves making up the difference in loss of calories with protein & vegetables. What is so special about organ-meats? Does something like Liverwurst count? Or do you try to minimize things like salt or preservatives?
     
  16. Nov 19, 2013 #236

    Geodetic_Effect

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    Fat is your body's second choice for energy production, so in a carb depleted state it will burn fat for energy. As long as caloric intake doesn't drop too low, it won't go after the muscle. Your body is efficient, if you aren't taking in enough calories it will get rid of muscle, especially if you aren't using it, because there is an energy cost to keep it. Fat stores don't require energy to sustain. They are passive. Your muscles however, are actively using energy, removing it reduces your daily caloric needs.

    You don't have to test, it's not really sophisticated though. If you are under 30g carbs/day, after 7 to 9 days you are there. No other testing required. I just play with different things and gauge the results. Organ meats contain a wide array of micronutrients and a high healthy fat content. Yes liverwurst counts, although there really isn't much liver in it. For health reasons you can look at salt/mineral ratios and avoid preservatives, but it won't really matter for fat loss.



     
  17. Nov 20, 2013 #237

    bigmac

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    I'm not buying it.

    High protein, low-carb diets can cause a number of health problems, including:

    Kidney failure. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.

    High cholesterol. It is well known that high-protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease, stroke, and cancer.

    Osteoporosis and kidney stones. High-protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete a large amount of calcium in their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones. A diet that increases protein at the expense of a very restrictive intake of plant carbohydrates may be bad for bones, but not necessarily a high-protein intake alone.

    Cancer. One of the reasons high-protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber, and antioxidants they contain. It is therefore important to obtain your protein from a diet rich in whole grains, fruits, and vegetables. Not only are your needs for protein being met, but you are also helping to reduce your risk of developing cancer.

    Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis). Low-carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath. Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day.


    http://www.webmd.com/diet/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets
     
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  18. Nov 20, 2013 #238

    bigmac

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  19. Nov 20, 2013 #239

    Geodetic_Effect

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    Definitely big differences in bulking and cutting phases. You are also going to have a much different approach as a skinny guy trying to gain a lot of lean mass. But it also has to be noted he was on a huge amount of steroids. Makes a pretty big difference lol.

     
  20. Nov 20, 2013 #240

    Geodetic_Effect

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    Webmd gets so much wrong here, especially when it comes to cholesterol. I'd have to recommend a large list of books and research for you to understand why though. The medical community in general gives horrible nutrition advice.

    And again, high protein/low carb diets are only damaging when one does not consume enough fat. That's why I would never advocate an 80% protein diet.

     

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