Article on Androgyny

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blubberismanly

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http://knol.google.com/k/dizzy-li/the-appeal-of-the-androgynous-woman/1opj0yw5vp6fb/1

Anrdogyny is something I've grappled with for most of my life. I've never really resented it, though I've never understood why I'm not gay. Everywhere I go I'm mistaken for being a guy. And it isn't just how I dress, either. I've had people forget I'm female while talking to me. It's even gotten to a point where my mom has slipped and called me a "he." Okay, I have ALL the plumbing of a girl--including natural DD's. But my build, face, voice and personality are all that of a guy. I even have one friend who doesn't even think of me as a chick. It's very weird when I think about it. When was in GA, my battles thought I should have been born a gay male. I identify as female, and was born female. So the third gender/trans thing doesn't apply here. But I do tend to get along with guys, gay or straight, much easier than women.

I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't suck being androgynous...it just isn't easy.
 

Tracii

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I find this post very interesting.
I guess I never met someone in your situation.
What sex are you drawn to in a sexual way?If that is too personal forget I asked I don't want you to think I'm some weirdo.LOL
 

CarlaSixx

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BIM, story of my life as well. Though my family always wanted boys, so as I was a tomboy, they got a second boy in a sense. I've also got apparently a deeper voice for a woman. I'm very much a woman, and identify as that, but there's moments. And sometimes, yes, it can be frustrating.
 

blubberismanly

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I find this post very interesting.
I guess I never met someone in your situation.
What sex are you drawn to in a sexual way?If that is too personal forget I asked I don't want you to think I'm some weirdo.LOL

I've always been attracted to men. I had my bicurious thing in high school, but it didn't work out. I couldn't even finish the job I started. Mentally I'm not a neither gender person, I'm VERY masculine, but still female.
 

CarlaSixx

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I've always been attracted to men. I had my bicurious thing in high school, but it didn't work out. I couldn't even finish the job I started. Mentally I'm not a neither gender person, I'm VERY masculine, but still female.

It sucks being attracted to men and when people see you're a woman, they automatically think you're a lesbian. :( It's the hardest thing to deal with when trying to be out in the dating world. It's so rare to find a guy who doesn't want the "stereotypical" female. I'm still looking.

Not that I don't have moments where I think some women are hot, but when it gets down to business, I'm at ease with meat and don't know what to do with a muffin, and oral is totally out of the question :happy: lol.
 

blubberismanly

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Yeah, I've been called a fag all my life. Not in a friendly jab kinda way, either. It's fun sometimes when I go to a restaurant and the waiter thinks I'm a dude until I give him my card...but like you said, it doesn't make dating easy. I've actually stopped looking with intent. Even guys who claim not to be after stereotypes want a girl who is less than modest (tight clothes, boob/ass cleave, etc.). It's like there is no difference. I don't think I've ever met a straight guy who digs androgyny. They just don't work like that. Men are all just men, and they want (basically) the same thing. And I'm not it. The only thing harder is finding a job in this market.
 

Ample Pie

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Okay, I really identify with a lot of what's been said in this thread so far. I've been called "Sir" many many times in my life. And the truth is, I'm kind of a girly girl in one sense--like obsessed with pink and glitter (seriously, even at 34)--but in another I have a very masculine presence and sort of default to that most of the time.

To that end, I want to tell a side story and throw out a song that people here may or may not really get. When I was about 18 or 19 (mind you I'd always dealt with this issue, if you saw my yearbook, on one page I'd look female and on the next, male), I met a guy. We actually met on a radio call in show--of all weird places*. Nothing unusual, just a comedy/silliness show.

Eventually we hung out in person. We talked a lot on the phone, too. One night, we were sitting in the woods by his house and he said, "I want to play a song for you." My first thought (as it always is) was "great, now I have to pretend to care about a song that is well meant but that won't mean anything to me."

I have never been more wrong and I would bet that Butch, who knows how much this artist means to me, would back me up on this. :) And, in fact, what happened was that, as the song reached its conclusion, I sat there just crying with this boy, in the woods, in the middle of the night. I can honestly say, I have never been the same person since.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcOlkA3ghf4
The lyrics are attached, just below, if you click the "more info" arrows.

---
* another side note: The first time I called the show, I was 16 years old. I'd always been told I sounded like a boy and I was afraid to give my real, girl, name so I used the name Shane, thinking, for whatever reason, that is sounded equally boy and girl. As it turns out, the hosts could tell by my voice that I was a girl and it was never an issue. But I remember the fear and confusion as I sat with the phone ringing in my hands that first night, not knowing how to best identify myself to avoid all the irritation and confusion.
 

butch

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What a story, Rebecca (and yes, that song is ace, as is many of her others. My personal favorite is "What do you hear in these sounds"). Thank you for sharing that, and it sounds like it was a transcendant moment of catharsis for you.

I can identify with a lot of this thread, too, even before I decided to play up my masculine side. However, personality-wise, I'm not very masculine, but I can put up a mean front. :)



I'm glad that we can talk about all aspects of gender and gender expression on this forum, and thanks to you all for sharing so many aspects of yourselves here, as it helps all of us live as GLBTQ people in a non-GLBTQ world.
 

Tad

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Blubberismanly (that seems awkward, but 'BIM' didn't sound too good either....)--I'd maybe agree that the typical, more average, guy is not so apt to be interested in a more androgynous partner. But I think there are a fair number of exceptions (I like to think I'm one but that I'm not that unique).

My wife never got confused for a guy very often, but I suspect that is because she is all hip, which in some ways is even a stronger feminine marker than boobs in that you see it from every side. But her voice is deeper than mine, she used to have a 'boy's hair cut', she was the girl who played British Bulldog with the boys at recess, when we've found quizzes on brain gender she scores more on the male side of the spectrum, she shops like a man, lives in t-shirts, jeans, and Doc Martens, and so on. It is perhaps not totally surprising that one of her first boyfriends announced that he was gay not too long after they broke up, he was probably attracted to her more male energy. These days she expresses that energy mostly in being a kick-ass urban cyclist who gets pumped up from riding in traffic.

Anyway, when we started going out, there was not a shortage of other guys interested in her. Now I grant you that a lot of guys have never known quite what to make of her, as she didn't fit into typical female stereotypes...but like I said, I certainly was not the only one who thought she was very, very, interesting.

I suspect that what happens is that a minority of straight(ish) guys will be interested in more androgynous women, but that those who are will be very interested, because the type they find most interesting is not that common. At least, that would be my case I think.

So, don't give up on the guys just yet. How you find the kind who likes the male energy in a female body, I'm not quite sure....but I'm pretty sure that they are out there.
 

blubberismanly

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I haven't given up entirely, just redirected my priorities. I think guys (well, a lot of them anyway) want a girl they can be proud of AND show off. It isn't exactly flattering for a guy when strangers assume his girl is a dude and think he is gay. I can see how a straight guy could be embarrassed.

This is also a strictly two gender society, and girls are expected to be a certain way. We're trained to like pink things and baby dolls and barbies...and boys are supposed to appreciate a girl who is a feminine stereotype and not (necessarily) herself.

Basically, if you got the parts you have to play the part. That's why I'm not avidly looking anymore.
 

Ample Pie

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I have to say that I've not found that to be strictly true, sure it's the predominant attitude, but not the exclusive one. Of course, I've never been able to deal with gender as a black and white thing...and perhaps, over the years, that has endeared me to people who feel similarly. In the end, all I can say is that there are so many people out there, the likelihood that someone somewhere would jive with you is pretty good. The trick is to be there when and where it happens and to be open to it.
 

blubberismanly

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In other words I have to get lucky. Luck is not something I've come to rely on. If I meet a guy, okay cool. I just don't want to get my hopes up over nothing here. I have a viberator. It'll do until that lucky day.
 

Ample Pie

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I'm pretty sure it's always luck--no matter the gender, apparent or otherwise--when people meet and spark an interest in each other. The part you can control, really, is to be open to it.
 

Tad

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Basically, if you got the parts you have to play the part. That's why I'm not avidly looking anymore.

Says who? Isn't anyone a rebel anymore? :D

Or for a different take, let me quote Billy Joel:

"Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and
Show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger
But we love to try them on"

In other words, what we show the world does not have to be what see about ourselves, or for that matter what we show behind closed doors. Out in public you will seldom get to see someone's other masks....I'd say a huge portion of people are much more complicated and multi-layered than they seem.

But from what you've said, you've been having bad experiences. Nothing wrong with staying out of the pool for a while....just please don't go around saying that there is only one sort of fish in the pool, when other people are saying that in there experience there are more than one type.
 

blubberismanly

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You have a point, and I agree with it...mostly. I'd dive in a lot quicker if I wasn't an LA woman. It seems like men here expect perfection and subservient far too often. LA is the land of stereotypes and those who love them.
 

CarlaSixx

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In other words I have to get lucky. Luck is not something I've come to rely on. If I meet a guy, okay cool. I just don't want to get my hopes up over nothing here. I have a viberator. It'll do until that lucky day.

I shall rep you for this because I agree 100% lol. :bow:
 

Tad

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I've seen a lot of FA and big folks from LA-land talking about how the culture there makes things so much harder. Y'all need to stage a cultural revolution or something (or a mass migration?). It is hard enough marching to your own drummer anywhere, I really do feel for people embedded in cultures that are even less accepting of diversity :(
 

blubberismanly

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That's very true. Being unique in any situation is difficult. And being in the land of looks doesn't help things. I think LA just needs to pull its head out of its ass.
 

Bearsy

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I don't really have much to add other than I get rather turned on by androgynous women.
 

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