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Miss Vickie

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Vick, this is frustrating for me, as well. But I do have to admit, my husband *does* make an attempt. The problem is, it's not up to my standard. When I think "clean the house" I'm thinking of ALL the necessary tasks, including the always pleasant toilet bowl scrubbing, mopping, cleaning dust bunnies out from under beds, etc. He thinks: If it looks clean, it's clean. If it looks tidy, it doesn't matter what's shoved into closets, under beds, into random drawers. I get so frustrated, having to ask and explain and then RE-ASK and RE-EXPLAIN what my vision of a clean house is, I just eventually give up and do it myself. That's my bad.
I hear you. And I know there are things that really bug Burtimus and he takes care of them, but the bathroom could go to hell and he wouldn't care. The upside is the same, that he doesn't care, which is good because if I don't do it, he won't be upset by that. In the years when we had little kids, the house was always in some level of untidy if not out and out danger of being condemned. Between my mobility issues and the kids it was more than I could handle. Dog help me if I had a hubby who wanted a Leave it to Beaver type home -- cause that just ain't me.

He really does try, and if I tell him what I want done, he does an excellent job without complaint, unlike my ex who gave me nothing but static (and bruises, truth be told). But I guess I just wish sometimes that I didn't have to say, "Hey, the toilet is dirty, wouldya mind cleaning it?" He has done that, and I appreciate it, but most of the time it makes me crazier than him, usually when I'm home alone, so I just go ahead and do it. And then grumble. To myself, naturally. ;):rolleyes:

OTOH, he dealt with pet stink for many years (still does) which makes him a saint since he really didn't/doesn't want pets. :)
 

Tina

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It's always a hard thing for me to hear, because I like to think that the variety of other things people work for and spend their lives on (besides being moms) are also valuable, meaningful, fulfilling ways to spend a life. But when I hear women say this, it always stings, like if I don't become a mother I will be missing out on the greatest joy possible in life.
But the thing is that you could go ahead and have a child and still not feel that way. It's such an individual thing. For some, they really do feel it's their greatest achievement, no matter what else they've done. For others, not so much. And it's even harder when a child has problems and there are struggles and you feel like you've really screwed up or that you can't do anything right. There is so much guilt mixed in.

As women, it seems that the guilt comes with the womb. If we don't have children, we are somehow not fulfilling our supposed biological imperatives. If we do have children, then there's the dilemma. We feel guilty if we go to work, because then we'll be leaving our child; if we don't work we feel guilty because we're not contributing financially to the household coffers.

And looking at it through a 2nd wave feminist filter, there can be disdain from those who feel that having children is almost akin to abandoning 'the cause,' which I personally find ridiculous. To me, feminism is all about choices and having the freedom to make those choices.

I think the real shame is that no matter what a woman does she is screwed and wrong. And the worst thing is when other women lay guilt trips on fellow women. It's bad enough that society as a whole and those men who believe they know what a woman's place is puts their puny two cents in gets disdainful and judgmental, but when it's fellow women, to me it seems even worse.
Lol. I remember being with my dad in a toy store and him pointing to the "age appropriate" notices on boxes like "For ages 3-5" and he was convinced the manufacturers used "vanity aging" the way clothing manufacturers use vanity sizing. Like if a kid could reasonably use a toy at age 2, they'd say "For ages 4 and up" so parents would be convinced their kid was a genius.

I hope it's ok to post about a private conversation...
No, it's really not. Think about it.
I think I got a bit overenthused with the direction of the thread. I honestly just really dislike kids and I dislike a lot of parenting behavior that i've observed and I just kinda vented.

I'm sorry if anyone got offended. A lot of what I posted is stuff I'd post on a Childfree by Choice board so I just sort of went off in that vein.
I'm glad that this was already settled, as I didn't want to have to moderate any flames in the thread and was glad to see it settled between people themselves. Still, it's no more okay to use negative lingo from those on childfree sites that are disparaging to mothers than it would be to use negative lingo on mothers' sites that address disdainful ideas about those who don't want children.

Personally, I find value in each decision and think that each and every woman should be able to decide for herself what she will do. Of course, it's often circumstance that can dictate, but still.
 

comaseason

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As women, it seems that the guilt comes with the womb. If we don't have children, we are somehow not fulfilling our supposed biological imperatives.
I have a cousin who cannot conceive. She and her husband have tried for years and years to have children of their own and can't. They have also tried to adopt and have had an awful time with the American adoption system. The last time I went to visit them she and I talked. I offered her my goods cause clearly I'm not using them. She thought I was joking, but I wasn't. We talked and decided that due to the cost and all the other stuff that would go along with it, it was not feasible.

But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.
 

TallFatSue

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Or when some politicians want to raise taxes "for education" or everything is "for the children". As one childfree activist said "Ok, I'll pay more taxes for your kid but I can I get a refund if he decides to being a couple of Uzis to school and take out the lacrosse team?"
I'm perfectly willing to pay taxes for education even though we don't have children. After all, we want a well-educated workforce to run our society, particularly to help maintain us during our golden years in the lifestyle to which we we are accustomed. ;) On the other hand, these tax increases are promoted as "for the children" year in and year out, but an equal or greater amount of money always seems to come out of the rest of the budget, so in the long run the tax increases "for education" actually end up being used for everything but education. That really burns me up :mad:

Oh well, despite everything wrong with our society, as a Pollyanna I find there's a lot more right with it. It sure beats being a hunter-gatherer. :rolleyes:
But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.
We are so blessed that we don't particularly want kids and we can't conceive them anyway. I'm not overly religious but methinx there's a master plan to everything in our lives, if we are intelligent enough to follow the hints. Kinda like, there must be a good reason I'm so big (unless I'm merely rationalizing a fait accompli, but I doubt it). Methinx also that having children is absolutely the right thing for most people to do, just not us.

Meanwhile my not-so-sneaky policy is to spoil our nieces and nephews (and eventually our grandnieces and grandnephews) royally rotten, so I can consume some of the collateral goodies. "Hey, kids, who wants pie (or cake or ice cream) with your Aunt Sue and Uncle Art?" :eat2: Yes indeedy, it's hard work, but during the Halloween / Thanksgiving / Christmas / New Year holiday season, I roll up my sleeves, loosen my waistband, and do my aunt-ly duties. Then I give the kiddos back to their parents. Good heavens, I'm turning into my grandmothers! Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)
 

TraciJo67

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I have a cousin who cannot conceive. She and her husband have tried for years and years to have children of their own and can't. They have also tried to adopt and have had an awful time with the American adoption system. The last time I went to visit them she and I talked. I offered her my goods cause clearly I'm not using them. She thought I was joking, but I wasn't. We talked and decided that due to the cost and all the other stuff that would go along with it, it was not feasible.

But here I am with a perfectly good house for a fetus and I don't want kids. And there she is absolutely heartbroken that she can't have any. Honestly I get choked up thinking about it now, because she would be such an awesome mother, and her husband an equally awesome dad. Do I feel guilty about that? You bet your sweet bippy I do, even if it's something entirely out of my control. I do hate to think there's a perfectly good womb wasted on me.
Ironic chuckle here, because my youngest sister offered me the goods too. It was the sweetest thing, and I will love her forever for it. I didn't take her up on it because pregnancy isn't easy for her. She's had medical problems associated with the latter stages and delivery of her two children. We couldn't be responsible for putting her in any kind of position to compromise her health (especially not since she has two children who rely on her). It is a wonderfully selfless gesture on your part. I doubt you even realize the scope of it, and how much your cousin must love and appreciate you for the gesture.

I have an almost brand new (used maybe a dozen times), top of the line treadmill with all of the bells 'n whistles that I never use. Should I feel guilty for spending that $$$ and ... uh, wait. Bad analogy. Of course I should feel guilty about that :D But you? Feel guilty because you aren't using your perfectly good womb? No. A gazillionty times, no. I'm sure you know that already. I'm just reconfirming it.

All the best to your cousin. I hope that one day, when she least expects it, the opportunity of a lifetime lands in her lap. That's what happened to my husband and I, at a point when we were just about to give up altogether. I wouldn't wish that level of despair on anyone. But the joy of an opportunity, the stars aligning and everything falling right ... into ... place ... it's a special feeling, and THAT, I'd wish on everyone (no matter what the desire happens to be).
 

BubbleButtBabe

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If the house wasn't clean, I heard about it from the MIL and other relatives.

I had the best FIL in the world bless his soul..He came over to my house 1 day while I was gone to talk to my ex..He told my ex that he needed to step up and help me around the house and with the kids because I was killing myself..FIL told him I was working the same 8 hours he was in a job that was just as hard if not harder then the ex and it was a shame that I was having to burn my candle at both ends..I would go to their house on Sat and spend most of the day sleeping because I was wore out..So the ex would stay up late with my son and do the vacuuming,dishes and some of the laundry..Surprised me when my ex told me what his Dad said since he was very chauvinistic!
 

TallFatSue

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One of my cousins had a daughter a couple months ago and everybody saw her at one of our Thanksgiving gatherings. We were all very happy for her, and most of the women wanted to hold the baby, but I politely declined. After the girl spit up on a few shoulders, or suddenly needed her diaper changed, the wisdom of my opting out became more apparent. Although some seemed to enjoy being the recipients. :confused:

However I do have my niche. When the kiddos are a couple years old, that's when they love to sit on their big fat Aunt Sue's lap. The other women are more than willing to relinquish that duty to me. If I happen to have my semi-regular after-dinner hiccups, the kiddos get a thrill ride too. :rolleyes: Years later I realized that children are forming their earliest memories at that age. As my various cousins, nieces, nephews etc. grew up, they told me that being nestled in their Aunt Sue's warm embrace was a good memory. Without realizing it, I had indoctrinated some of them that big + soft = good. :D
 

thatgirl08

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On Thanksgiving, my uncle's (related to me through marriage) sister (not really related to me) came over with her adopted daughter.. she's very cute and everything but to be completely honest, I was not interested at all in holding her or anything but my entire family made a BIG deal out of it. She's two now, so I was a little more willing than last year, but I really didn't want to play games with her or anything but for some reason she was drawn to me and she kept putting me on the spot.. not intentionally obviously since she's two but every time I saw her dragging something over my way to play I was like NOOOOO. My entire family though was like all pissy about it because I didn't want to hold her and they kept teasing me for being awkward around her. My grandfather made a comment about how when I grow up (I guess 18 = 10 in this situation) I'll love children because all women do. oh. lord. :rolleyes:
 

Tracyarts

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I don't want kids, don't particularly like them (I don't like babies at all and want nothing to do with them, but can tolerate older kids and even enjoy their presence when they are not being bratty or cranky.)

One of the reasons why my mom stopped having much of anything to do with me after I got married was because she realized that I was serious about not wanting kids. My dad was totally okay with it, and while I am sure he would have liked to have had grandkids, it wasn't something that was important to him like it was to my mom.

I remember at my dad's funeral, one of my "country cousins" and his wife came up and asked me where were my kids and were shocked when I said I don't have any. They asked why. I said well parenting just isn't for me. That wasn't good enough and they kept prying and asking completely inappropriate questions like whether I was infertile because if so I could adopt. I told them the truth. That my husband and I don't really like kids all that much but really like the life we have without them. My cousin was just taken aback and shocked, but his wife got SO pissed and snarky and said "I feel so sad for your daddy, he would have really enjoyed some grandkids, too bad you didn't want to give him any before he died". I never understood why my not having, wanting, or liking kids should matter to her so much that it made her say something so hateful. And it was said in a hateful manner, it was obvious by the look on her face and tone in her voice.

I have had people say that I need to just have a baby, because I will be glad I did once it's born and I "fall in love" with it. Sorry but that's a crock of shit. I have known women who had kids they did not want and chose to keep them anyway for whatever reason. Those women were NEVER happy. And made sure their husbands and kids were never happy either. IMHO, all kids deserve to be wanted, by both parents.

Tracy
 

LoveBHMS

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I have had people say that I need to just have a baby, because I will be glad I did once it's born and I "fall in love" with it. Sorry but that's a crock of shit. I have known women who had kids they did not want and chose to keep them anyway for whatever reason. Those women were NEVER happy. And made sure their husbands and kids were never happy either. IMHO, all kids deserve to be wanted, by both parents.
What an awful concept. I'm not saying it never happens; I do know a man whose wife told him she was going off the pill whether he liked it or not. He did not want kids at that time but did want them eventually and he adores his daughter. Ironically though, it killed their marriage that she did it when he wasn't ready. But the idea that you should just *hope* it works, that you just love the kid when it's here is downright scary. What if you DON'T just fall in love with it? There isn't anything you can do about it because now it's here for the rest of your life.

It's also scary how common that mindset is. My friend was on the fence when she was younger. Her husband didn't want kids and he was an active alcoholic and that was pushing her towards the direction of not doing it. She was telling a coworker about her situation and the coworker said she should just "go ahead and get pregnant anyway" and her husband would adjust to it. My friend was horrified and said she loved and respected her husband too much to force parenthood on him and it would not be fair to the baby to have it born to a father who had not chosen to do so.
 

mergirl

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I always felt weird that i never really liked babies. I find them boring. All they do is shit, eat, spew , shit, eat, spew...oh and cry. My friend just had a baby and she brought her over to our house and i felt the same. Except for when she was about to cry and i made a farting noise and she smiled i did feel a slight stirring and a genuine "awww" came out of me. I pretty much spent whole time she was here thinking i am so glad i don't have babies. I have never ever felt i would want them. I used to wonder if it was something to do with my sexuality but then i realised a lot of fully fledged members of the ladies in non-sensible shoes club, felt the same way.
I spent most of the time i was holding my friends baby saying "gah..she hates me!.. gah. she smells..gah she just puked.. gah!!" ..meanwhile GD just picked her up when she was crying and managed to make her fall asleep.
I don't want to pass on my crazy genetics to any poor human either.
I do like kids, when they get to the talking stage and i can communicate to them how much i hate them!! (lmao..wee joke). I just find kids more fun and less worrying. I like that they can tell you when they are hungry and go to the toilet themselves. If i was ever to adopt or foster i think it would be kids who were 5 yrs or older.
In Scotland gay people are actually just being allowed to adopt and foster as a couple-This was passed a few years ago but it was just in October that legislation was passed. This is good because i have a lot of gay friends who have wanted children all their lives and they now can, a lot of which could provide a better home for a child than many people who just have sex and get a child, no matter what thier capabilities are..
Erm..anyway.. what was the question?
I think i would remain childless by choice but would perhaps consider fostering at some point.
 

lypeaches

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I'm way late to the thread...but I'll just add that you can put me down on the childless by choice column. I do not relate well to children, and I don't particularly like them.

I knew it from a young age...at 13 lots of my friends were babysitting, but you literally couldn't pay me to do it. I have always been in the "never say never" camp, because I realized that at some point the urge could hit, but it just never did. I'm 45 now. Fortunately DH felt the same way.

I am lucky though in that no one has ever really bothered me about it. Don't know why.
 

LoveBHMS

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I'm way late to the thread...but I'll just add that you can put me down on the childless by choice column. I do not relate well to children, and I don't particularly like them.

I knew it from a young age...at 13 lots of my friends were babysitting, but you literally couldn't pay me to do it. I have always been in the "never say never" camp, because I realized that at some point the urge could hit, but it just never did. I'm 45 now. Fortunately DH felt the same way.

I am lucky though in that no one has ever really bothered me about it. Don't know why.
All i can say is....what if you regret it? Not having kids. Well then...you regret it. If you have kids and you wind up feeling you don't want to be a parent, you wind up angry, stressed, depressed, and miserable. Not good for parents or child.

I don't like kids, never did and never will. Anyone who has the urge to co-parent would do so with another partner. I have never regretted following my innate push.
 

AnnMarie

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No idea how I missed this topic that's so near and dear to me.


I have never wanted kids, and that has never changed. I started looking into how to get my tubes tied when I was 19.... of course no one would do it. I still find that highly irritating, it's my body, my choice - but nope.

If I'd been an 18 year old who pumped about 3 kids already, suurreee, they would have tied me in knots.


Anyway, not my thing - don't want them.

Despite what some friends tease me for, and some genuinely believe, I don't hate kids. But I don't feel any "oooh!" towards them at all. Most kids bug me in that annoying, whiny, bratty, pulling at your sleeve way. The same way any adult of the same manners would. I will sometime see a cute baby and realize they're a cute baby in that Anne Geddes sort of way, but that's about it. I still don't coo or want to hold them or have any "awww, someday... ". Good LORD - no.


But some kids are very cool and fun and interesting to be around - especially when they're not mine and I'm able to leave them at a moment's notice. :)

I'm insanely lucky to have a mother who knows I don't want children, have never wanted children, and has never once said a single word to me to lead me to believe she thinks it could be/should be/may eventually be some other way. I know how lucky I am for that.
 

disconnectedsmile

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I'm also a card-carrying non-breeder, and I dislike when people ask me why. I feel like it's a personal decision that I shouldn't have to justify.
THIS, THIS, a thousand times this.

this is exactly what i feel, and i thank you for putting it so perfectly.
 

lypeaches

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All i can say is....what if you regret it? Not having kids. Well then...you regret it. If you have kids and you wind up feeling you don't want to be a parent, you wind up angry, stressed, depressed, and miserable. Not good for parents or child.

I don't like kids, never did and never will. Anyone who has the urge to co-parent would do so with another partner. I have never regretted following my innate push.
Me neither...I don't expect I ever will.

On a lighter side....I was watching an episode of Private Practice this fall, and there's one female character who is a very independant type. When a new mother asked her if she wanted to hold her baby, this character replied..."what, do I *look* like a woman who wants to hold a baby? This is a silk dress for chrissakes!". It totally cracked me up...and it was nice to see the variety in characters for once.
 

AnnMarie

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Me neither...I don't expect I ever will.

On a lighter side....I was watching an episode of Private Practice this fall, and there's one female character who is a very independant type. When a new mother asked her if she wanted to hold her baby, this character replied..."what, do I *look* like a woman who wants to hold a baby? This is a silk dress for chrissakes!". It totally cracked me up...and it was nice to see the variety in characters for once.

I'm going to pick on that one, just for a minute. And totally not intended toward you, Janelle, because I agree that it's at least nice to see the option of not wanting children represented at all.


However, I have a bit of issue with the rebuttal about the silk dress. I find that more often than not, if there's a discussion about my choice, I'm painted to be a selfish, self-serving person who doesn't care enough about my "role" to have children and give of myself. I resent this implication greatly as I give a lot to others - I just don't choose to parent. So, my beef with portrayals like that, that it's about a dress, sort of feed into that mentality that there's this very selfish, superficial, "me, me, me" attitude that accompanies the decision not to have kids.

If that is someone's argument, the same can be said about those who are very "me, me, me" about having them - but that will always be looked on as wholesome and loving and "natural" - where the choice to not be a parent seems to be seen as a defect and therefore judged by more traditional assignments of blame - selfish, stunted adolescence, shirking responsibility, etc.


Just a side thought that your comment brought up. :)
 

Isa

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What's wrong with being selfish, or even considered so, in this instance? There are more than enough people in the world having children to make up for those that do not (Duggars anyone?). While my decision was made for me due to a medical condition, in the end it was probably best.

I love my friends children but cannot ever imagine having one myself. The sheer degree to which one gives up their life to raise a child is incredible. After watching my friends and the changes they go through (which they are not always happy about and has made at least one couple stop at just that, one) I now find it amazing when someone wants to have a child.
 

tattooU

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Glad to see/read this thread! i've never wanted children, much to the dismay of my stepmother. i was married for 10 years, and i think she waited with baited breath every year for us to give her some grandbaby news. When my ex-husband got the good ol' snip i think it finally sunk in.

But then, as all good things... my marriage came to an end. :(

i recall one of the things i my stepmother told me early in my separation was "maybe now you'll find a good guy and have some kids!" :doh: Uh right, totally what i was thinking...

i wonder how my conversation will go this Xmas when i tell her that my bf has about as much interest in reproducing as i do. i'll break it to her nicely.
 

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