Do you think that plus size acceptance has increased or decreased in today's society?

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bigmac

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It can be, but it hasn't always been for everybody.....and the way for that to lessen is for fat people to succeed when given a chance, and show that they can do so.
Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.

Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:

-- A 320 pound woman with a degree from a major university who made 60K as an investigator on the trading floor of a major bank (think stage coach). A decent job for sure but the salary was a pittance compared to what traders were making. She had the credentials and smarts to be a trader. But they were not about to let a fat chick into their club.

-- A 340 pound woman who graduated with honors from a major law school. Based on her outstanding academic credentials she interviewed with multiple large firms -- but none offered her a job (although they hired less accomplished but thinner classmates). The only job she was offered was with a small firm that does real estate closings and divorces.

-- A 360 pound woman who was very smart with great social skills working for a Fortune 500 telecommunications company. She was a call center supervisor making 75K. Again a good but not great job. WLS, 200 pound weight loss, and 30K in cosmetic surgery and she's was promoted to human recourses VP making well into six figures.

-- A 210 pound woman (only 5'1") who works as an accountant for a large mutual fund doing boring back office work for 70K. She always had stellar performance reviews year after year but somehow never got promoted to management.

-- And my wife, when she weighed over 400 pounds (max 522) she also always got great performance reviews. She was given ever increasing responsibility (she had spending authority on large projects greater than coworkers making more than twice as much). She was shoehorned into what was called a "coordinator" position -- basically a management position without the pay or recognition. Like my friend described above, major weight loss (down to 175) was quickly followed by promotion to actual management.

This pattern is so common that the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that being fat significantly impacts career advancement.
 
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superodalisque

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Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.

Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:

-- A 320 pound woman with a degree from a major university who made 60K as an investigator on the trading floor of a major bank (think stage coach). A decent job for sure but the salary was a pittance compared to what traders were making. She had the credentials and smarts to be a trader. But they were not about to let a fat chick into their club.

-- A 340 pound woman who graduated with honors from a major law school. Based on her outstanding academic credentials she interviewed with multiple large firms -- but none offered her a job (although they hired less accomplished but thinner classmates). The only job she was offered was with a small firm that does real estate closings and divorces.

-- A 360 pound woman who was very smart with great social skills working for a Fortune 500 telecommunications company. She was a call center supervisor making 75K. Again a good but not great job. WLS, 200 pound weight loss, and 30K in cosmetic surgery and she's was promoted to human recourses VP making well into six figures.

-- A 210 pound woman (only 5'1") who works as an accountant for a large mutual fund doing boring back office work for 70K. She always had stellar performance reviews year after year but somehow never got promoted to management.

-- And my wife, when she weighed over 400 pounds (max 522) she also always got great performance reviews. She was given ever increasing responsibility (she had spending authority on large projects greater than coworkers making more than twice as much). She was shoehorned into what was called a "coordinator" position -- basically a management position without the pay or recognition. Like my friend described above, major weight loss (down to 175) was quickly followed by promotion to actual management.

This pattern is so common that the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that being fat significantly impacts career advancement.

actually that is a fallacy. there are a lot of other reasonable conclusions that could be reached.

I call bs because i have a gf who is a fat trader and there have always been fat men on the trading room floor. have you ever been there? I seriously doubt it.

I call bs on the attorney because I have fat ivy league friends who practice at major firms and who are even partners.

I know fat female VPs who make six figures. I also know fat male ones. heck the last VP of a major corp who hired me was a really big dude over 400lbs and even was so working at a major healthcare related company. so more bs.


and if you are trying to say there are no fat people in management in accounting you really have your eyes closed. accounting is chock full of fat folk, especially the highly experienced ones in management.

I think what you're talking about above is more a function of being a woman and this economy than being fat because it sounds exactly like what a lot of my average sized female friends go through anyway.

and it still doesn't statistically explain why even supersized fat people's , of which there aren't that many anyway, employment stats mirror their proportion in society in the workplace.

and it also doesn't explain why in pretty much all professions weight is reflection of the percentage of people of that weight in society. and actually some are fatter than the rest of society because they can afford to be.

you act as if every average sized person is always paid fairly and gets unimpeded advancement at all times. that isn't even possible because there is a limit to mobility in the professions.

everyone who tries for it isn't going to get it simply because there aren't necessarily enough those kinds of positions for everyone anyway. there is no fairy tale. this is the real world where some people get the position and some people don't. and there are a lot more variables out there besides weight.

it is also not constructive for people to blame everything negative that may happen to them on weight because it keeps people from honing in on other important issues that could push them over the top that are much more important like education ability and social skills.

I have been a super sized person all of my adult life. I have yet not to get a job offer unless they didn't decide to hire anyone.

what you are talking about sounds more like people casting for a t.v. role than what is really going on out there in the professional world.
 
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bigmac

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I'm glad at least one fat person seems to have lived a charmed life. Unfortunately many others have not been so lucky.

Your argument is akin to saying our President is a black man. Therefore, there is no discrimination against black men (one of Biodieselman 's recent obnoxious cartoons made this argument). It would follow that black men who don't succeed would be well advised look within themselves for personal flaws.

Let me be clear -- this argument is total BS when applied to black men -- and is likewise total BS when applied to fat people.
 

Tad

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I'm glad at least one fat person seems to have lived a charmed life. Unfortunately many others have not been so lucky.

Your argument is akin to saying our President is a black man. Therefore, there is no discrimination against black men (one of Biodieselman 's recent obnoxious cartoons made this argument). It would follow that black men who don't succeed would be well advised look within themselves for personal flaws.

Let me be clear -- this argument is total BS when applied to black men -- and is likewise total BS when applied to fat people.
Of course size discrimination exists, and of course some fat people will hit more of it than will others.

Likewise there is discrimination based on ethnic background, skin colour, attractiveness of various forms, mastery of the working language in your milieu, gender, height, hobbies, schools attended......

So if you are not a tall, handsome, thin, white, athletic male who attended an ivy league school and bonds well on the golf course, should you just give up and say "I'll never be successful, so why try?"

(not to say you should ignore the reality of the world, just saying that external factors are only part of the story)
 

Dr. Feelgood

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(not to say you should ignore the reality of the world, just saying that external factors are only part of the story)
And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is luck. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.
 

BorisFA

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Over the years I've had the pleasure of knowing many very smart well educated fat women. They've all had decent jobs so it could be argued that they were given a chance to succeed and did so. However, when you look closer they weren't really given a full and fair chance.

Many many fat people (especially fat women) are trapped in what I'll call the back office ghetto. Some examples from my personal experience:

-- A 320 pound woman with a degree from a major university who made 60K as an investigator on the trading floor of a major bank (think stage coach). A decent job for sure but the salary was a pittance compared to what traders were making. She had the credentials and smarts to be a trader. But they were not about to let a fat chick into their club.

-- A 340 pound woman who graduated with honors from a major law school. Based on her outstanding academic credentials she interviewed with multiple large firms -- but none offered her a job (although they hired less accomplished but thinner classmates). The only job she was offered was with a small firm that does real estate closings and divorces.

-- A 360 pound woman who was very smart with great social skills working for a Fortune 500 telecommunications company. She was a call center supervisor making 75K. Again a good but not great job. WLS, 200 pound weight loss, and 30K in cosmetic surgery and she's was promoted to human recourses VP making well into six figures.

-- A 210 pound woman (only 5'1") who works as an accountant for a large mutual fund doing boring back office work for 70K. She always had stellar performance reviews year after year but somehow never got promoted to management.

-- And my wife, when she weighed over 400 pounds (max 522) she also always got great performance reviews. She was given ever increasing responsibility (she had spending authority on large projects greater than coworkers making more than twice as much). She was shoehorned into what was called a "coordinator" position -- basically a management position without the pay or recognition. Like my friend described above, major weight loss (down to 175) was quickly followed by promotion to actual management.

This pattern is so common that the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that being fat significantly impacts career advancement.
That is our current Reality, fat forbidden or accept consequences as bigmac has told. How can we change it ? wake up all fat admirers , help them to come out of the closed, other ways will end failing :huh:
 

wrestlingguy

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That is our current Reality, fat forbidden or accept consequences as bigmac has told. How can we change it ? wake up all fat admirers , help them to come out of the closed, other ways will end failing :huh:
Yes, because people are going to listen to other people that are considered fetishists. First thing some of you may want to do is to stop using a fetish term like "fat admirer". Is it really much different today than the now antiquated term "chubby chaser"?

Fat people are people, regardless of gender, and to reduce them to terms like fat & chubby seems to me (and hopefully others) pretty damn similar to the magazine diet ads & science "studies" that cut the heads off of the fat people in the pictures. It dehumanizes them, especially to people outside of the fat community.

For me, the most positive thing anyone who is attracted to fat people can do to further size/fat acceptance is to live that part of your life no different than any other person. If you're dating, go out and enjoy your date in public. Show consideration for them, show affection (if you're feeling it). A word to the wise, it may also look fetish if you're rubbing their fat in public. I really believe that the more people see fat people in dating scenarios, their resistance to it will lessen over time.

If you do want to blog, or get active in fat flash mobs & stuff like that, well fine.........but think of the impact that we could have if everyone could just make public dating look normal. That alone would be a big step forward.
 

superodalisque

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Well, it does cost money to make a movie. If you just want to record people with a video camera and put it on YouTube like some sort of homemade reality show, sure, anyone can do that. But if you want an action movie or sci-fi movie, anything with special effects, that takes money. It also takes really good acting skills to sell a movie without special effects, and most people do not have good acting skills.
so what about all of the movies that can be made without special effects?

so there are no fat people with good acting skills? fat people are over half the populations now. could there be some talent there?
 

superodalisque

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Of course size discrimination exists, and of course some fat people will hit more of it than will others.

Likewise there is discrimination based on ethnic background, skin colour, attractiveness of various forms, mastery of the working language in your milieu, gender, height, hobbies, schools attended......

So if you are not a tall, handsome, thin, white, athletic male who attended an ivy league school and bonds well on the golf course, should you just give up and say "I'll never be successful, so why try?"

(not to say you should ignore the reality of the world, just saying that external factors are only part of the story)
exactly. what is the alternative? give up. crawl under a rock. agree that you have no value when you do?
 

superodalisque

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And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is luck. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.
there is no such thing as luck, it's preparation meeting opportunity. the world isn't made of magic. people put a lot of effort into luck. I think one of the big problems is a whole lot of people waiting for a life to just fall into their laps.
 

superodalisque

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Yes, because people are going to listen to other people that are considered fetishists. First thing some of you may want to do is to stop using a fetish term like "fat admirer". Is it really much different today than the now antiquated term "chubby chaser"?

Fat people are people, regardless of gender, and to reduce them to terms like fat & chubby seems to me (and hopefully others) pretty damn similar to the magazine diet ads & science "studies" that cut the heads off of the fat people in the pictures. It dehumanizes them, especially to people outside of the fat community.

For me, the most positive thing anyone who is attracted to fat people can do to further size/fat acceptance is to live that part of your life no different than any other person. If you're dating, go out and enjoy your date in public. Show consideration for them, show affection (if you're feeling it). A word to the wise, it may also look fetish if you're rubbing their fat in public. I really believe that the more people see fat people in dating scenarios, their resistance to it will lessen over time.

If you do want to blog, or get active in fat flash mobs & stuff like that, well fine.........but think of the impact that we could have if everyone could just make public dating look normal. That alone would be a big step forward.
exactly. say a fat woman or man is beautiful or handsome out right. stop acting like the only reason they are with one is because they can't help themselves or only because they have an uncontrollable drive. the truth is fat people ARE attractive. it they weren't they would not be attracting anyone. if it were just about being fat any old fat person would do.
 

superodalisque

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I wonder, if people actually believe that being fat and thinking a fat person is beautiful and a fully worthwhile capable human being is so unrealistic impossible and hopeless what is the point of even being here except to take advantage of that situation.

black people and LGBT people face a lot of discrimination and prejudice but you don't see them constantly throwing their hands up and giving in to every negative idea and phobia about them. maybe that is exactly why they are so much more far ahead when it comes to a huge increase in the public recognition that prejudice toward both groups is intolerable.
 
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bigmac

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And the part of the story that everybody always ignores -- the elephant in the room -- is luck. Hard work is fine; talent is great. But we all know hard-working people who never make it, and unrewarded genius is proverbial. In the final analysis, we are not in control of our lives (or other people's), only of our attitudes. But that's quite a lot, if you think about it.

This is very true. Factors beyond an individual's control affect life outcomes. Malcolm Gladwell addressed this issue in his book Outliers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

Success rarely comes without hard work. However, circumstances beyond an individual's control determine how well rewarded an individual's hard work will be.
 

superodalisque

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This is very true. Factors beyond an individual's control affect life outcomes. Malcolm Gladwell addressed this issue in his book Outliers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

Success rarely comes without hard work. However, circumstances beyond an individual's control determine how well rewarded an individual's hard work will be.
there isn't much outside of your control except an accident. even then you have a lot of control. either you can try to recover and deal with a disability and even create a new kind of life if necessary or you can just give up. there is nearly always some kind of choice for most people in the first world. here in America there isn't a whole heck of a lot left up to luck. so pretending that we are all twisting in the wind in the first world is ridiculous. it's just that we make ourselves feel helpless by overlooking opportunities what others would kill to have. and when they do manage to come here they do much better than americans because they don't give up as easily.

outliers is full of fallacies and exclusions. but even a fat person can have many of the benefits the author mentions that successful people have. even if you want to take his word for everything being fat does not exclude you from coming from wealth, privilege, or having a family with access. even he knows that there is more than ONE thing at work. and the level of mega success that he talks about doesn't exclude people termed as clinically obese either. you need to look some stuff up.

I actually feel sorry for anyone who claims to be ambitious and really thinks their fat absolutely has to be such a huge deterrent. or perhaps they really aren't all that ambitious but just looking for one big easy excuse to fail since they are spending valuable time and energy on what could stop them instead of doing actually something that could put more in their favor. perhaps it would be more honest for them to say they don't want it. there is no shame in not being interested in putting in everything it takes to be super successful. it's not the life for everyone. some people find other things more important to their personal happiness.

it's weird taking advice from authors who couldn't even manage good enough grades to get into grad school or even achieve a level of super success for himself. you would be better served reading something written by Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates-- the people who actually did it. they have an entirely different take.

also his book does speak to the average professional jobs that you claim fat people can't get yet somehow have. he says very succinctly that it comes down to being able to complete your work in twenty hours a week for ten years. I think he calls it a ten thousand hour rule. and that is pretty much true. most of the time for anything, including getting the job, more than half of the battle is showing up. the problem with a lot of people is that they often scare themselves out of showing up. in his book "the talent myth" he talks about how narcissists often win. they win because they show up and they aren't afraid to toot their own horns and they aren't stymied by fear. they certainly do believe in themselves even when under qualified.

but actually most of his observations do not apply to most jobs because a boss is not going to put his/her neck on the line if your stats make them look bad or they can lose their job just because you can look the part. and the further away we get from 50s corporate mentality the more that is true. it's profits that run things and always have. if you can't figure out how to get them you are toast no matter what you look like. there are lots of people today who have a lot of corporate success but they don't go to anybody's office at all. many don't even really wear suits anymore. and nobody actually knows WHAT they look like. I deal with them every day in my position and they have huge incomes.

BTW there is a fat major bank VP, a hugely well known female marketing genius and others all the way from the east to the west coast right here on dims. there are many others actually doing all of the jobs you claim fat people can't even get but they wouldn't tell you that.
 
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ChickletsBBW

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I think there's a bit of both now days.

There seems to be more large people so society is having an easier time saying rude things to people of size, but also, there are things that are a bit more accommodating than in the past. Austin USED to be much more size friendly but in the past 10 years it is NOT anymore. Since we have Lance Armstrong here, Austin has become much more "health conscious" and it's more annoying to be in public where people still stare and crack jokes, even sometimes right next to you, which unfortunately shows their immaturity but.. it is what it is.

I do agree there are still many things that haven't changed as mentioned earlier like the size of airplane seats, even some theater seats and other things were mentioned as well.
Plus, I still do agree that I've lost many opportunities to further my career only due to my size, even though I was best qualified. I've also found that to be a fact that part of it is because I'm a woman (a fat woman at that), not a man.

I'm not really sure how big men were affected years ago.. but I honestly don't see/hear as much rudeness towards big guys as I do with big women. I have seen lots of bigger guys with women, and married too. I've seen big guys with thin and big women. I just honestly think it's more acceptable for a guy to be bigger than it is for a woman to be bigger but that is just from my observation. Until I got on the site, I had no idea there was something specific for female FA's that specifically like only larger men so kudos to them :)

My older brother is a big guy and has been all his life... I've always thought he was a handsome guy and never has had any problem meeting women (he's married now) so perhaps that's why my observations of bigger guys is how it is.

I am very "size accepting" meaning I honestly don't care what size you are, doesn't bother me one way or the other if you're thin or big. What matters to me is your personality. That's the one thing that usually makes or breaks how I feel about a person.

You could be miss thin "beauty queen of whatever" and have an extremely ugly personality and well.. that just makes you ugly in general in my opinion.
Same goes with a larger women that I hear nothing but bad mouthing about this and that and also they bad mouth thin women, just because they are thin... well, to me, that makes them an ugly person because of their ugly personality.
And of course, same thing goes with men of both sizes.

I know society will most likely never change as a whole although I hope it will someday. We are all different and that's what makes us each unique. I don't want to look just like "XYZ" because I want to be ME and have my own looks and my own personality and be unique.

I'm also not stupid. I know quite well, and personally too, that being extra heavy is not generally healthy. (I'm sure someone will try to negate this) However, the fact is it's been proven over and over. So yes, would I like to be healthier? yes.. and yes it's not good on my body structure to be this heavy. HOWEVER... I do love myself for WHO I am and I don't hate my size and I'm not ashamed of myself in any way. It took a long time for me to be able to say to myself in the mirror that I'm pretty. Its my opinion and its the only one that matters. Yes, we all have our ugly days and sometimes it's harder to say "I'm pretty" to myself but it's something that I think ALL plus-sized people should remember to do.

If a person has no self-esteem, the rest of the world picks up on that VERY quickly and if they notice it, many will take advantage of that and try to put you down just to make themselves feel better, which is pathetic but it's true.

As for those that have weight loss surgery... I really have a hard time with a lot of folks in the Dims community because they frown upon it. Well... "get over it" is my opinion.
Some people need the surgery usually for health reasons and when someone has it for those reasons alone, you should support them, not try to tell them don't do it.
We all know the risks involved and they don't need to be reminded of that.

And for those that have had WLS, don't forget you were once a larger person and don't you DARE crack jokes at larger people because in essence, you're saying all that nasty stuff to yourself since you used to own those same shoes. Also.. a quick reminder for those that have had the WLS, don't forget your friends just because you may be a smaller size now... friends come in all sizes and if you decide you're "too good" to hang around your old "fat" friends... you're loosing some great friends and you will be one of those people that has an ugly personality because you've chosen to get rid of your "fat friends" because you're not longer fat. All I should say is *tisk*tisk* to you

Ok.. off my rant :)
 
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bigmac

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SuperO, do you realize your position has been used (and continues to be used) to justify the second class status of African Americans? According to your argument black income, and even more importantly black wealth, remain substantially below that of whites because blacks have not properly prepared themselves to take advantage of opportunities (i.e. its the fault of individual black people). For the record and so there is no misunderstanding I believe that this argument is total BS.

Obviously black people and fat people do have jobs. The real question is -- if they had been white and/or thin would they have a better job?

The facts are sad: African-American students need to have substantially more education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/

A black man with a clean record has the same chance of getting hired as a white felon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

The same sort of thing is true for fat people.

If given the hypothetical choice between spending 100K to go to college or spending 100K on a magic pill to turn him white a purely economic argument could be made that a young black man's money would be better spent on the latter.

WLS actually gives fat people this choice -- for better or worse. My friend, the cell phone executive, recouped her WLS "investment" in less than a year. It will take about three or four years for my wife to recoup her WLS expenses (she lost more weight so reconstructive costs were higher and she works in the public sector where salaries are lower).

The forgoing is a purely economic analysis. I take no position on whether or not this is the right or moral thing to do.
 
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superodalisque

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SuperO, do you realize your position has been used (and continues to be used) to justify the second class status of African Americans? According to your argument black income, and even more importantly black wealth, remain substantially below that of whites because blacks have not properly prepared themselves to take advantage of opportunities (i.e. its the fault of individual black people). For the record and so there is no misunderstanding I believe that this argument is total BS.

Obviously black people and fat people do have jobs. The real question is -- if they had been white and/or thin would they have a better job?

The facts are sad: African-American students need to have substantially more education to have the same probability of getting a job as their white peers.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/

A black man with a clean record has the same chance of getting hired as a white felon.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

The same sort of thing is true for fat people.

If given the hypothetical choice between spending 100K to go to college or spending 100K on a magic pill to turn him white a purely economic argument could be made that a young black man's money would be better spent on the latter.

WLS actually gives fat people this choice -- for better or worse. My friend, the cell phone executive, recouped her WLS "investment" in less than a year. It will take about three or four years for my wife to recoup her WLS expenses (she lost more weight so reconstructive costs were higher and she works in the public sector where salaries are lower).

The forgoing is a purely economic analysis. I take no position on whether or not this is the right or moral thing to do.
um no. it's not the same when fat people's position are equal in proportion to their population. fat people have NEVER been denied suffrage or souls. they've never been enslaved as a group. they haven't been denied marriage or their children sold away. so the comparison is ridiculous and paranoid. to say the least it's a bad analogy.

you keep speaking in personal anecdotes while the actual stats speak differently in overall numbers. I know which I trust. but if we believe you and stop moving forward with our lives and whine and submit to what you seem to think must be inevitable for ever fat person we will eventually be treated the same as a slave in america. accepting inferiority in situations where it does not exist doesn't help. and certainly accepting it where it does doesn't help. I wonder what you think your position can actually accomplish for fat people at all?

View attachment 1972291_10152239888553908_899318350_n.jpg
 
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bigmac

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um no. it's not the same when fat people's position are equal in proportion to their population. fat people have NEVER been denied suffrage or souls. they've never been enslaved as a group. they haven't been denied marriage or their children sold away. so the comparison is ridiculous and paranoid. to say the least it's a bad analogy.

you keep speaking in personal anecdotes while the actual stats speak differently in overall numbers. I know which I trust. but if we believe you and stop moving forward with our lives and whine and submit to what you seem to think must be inevitable for ever fat person we will eventually be treated the same as a slave in america. accepting inferiority in situations where it does not exist doesn't help. and certainly accepting it where it does doesn't help. I wonder what you think your position can actually accomplish for fat people at all?
While African Americans have unquestionably suffered far more persecution than fat people for the purposes of this thread the analogy holds. When interviewing for jobs and applying for promotions fat people and black people are similarly situated in that there is a significant probability that their status as a member of either class will be held against them.

I'm wondering -- what statistics actually support your position?

Also, acknowledging obvious obstacles in no way implies that one shouldn't strive to both change the situation and better one's self. Both are actually easier to do if you acknowledge the facts on the ground.
 
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