Size acceptance... really?

[waldo]

Holy bloody hell!!! That really is a post for the ages, Loopy! I think you nailed pretty much every point - I am really so impressed and just thank you so much for that candid expression! I know that I am a relative dinosaur around here these days, but it seems the same old issues continue to be wrangled over. Anyways, the analogy of "watching my siblings fight with each other" is exactly what I have always been thinking. We can tear each other to pieces or band together and have a chance of pushing fat acceptance beyond the meager gains we have made to date. Thanks again, oh wise one (not being in any way facetious here) - your wisdom is impressive.

P.S. Donna and I do know each other besides just on the message boards. I hope she does not mind me stating that. I find her to be a really forthright and well-meaning person, so when the likes of her and I lock horns, it really is analogous to siblings who love each other but have a disagreement going at it hammer and tongs. We all came here for our own reasons but in the end we are all a community that is counter-culture and if we can't support each other we can not work towards beating the simplistic 'thin is in' narrative.

 

[Angelette]

@waldo Had no clue you guys are siblings. :O

 

[waldo]

@waldo Had no clue you guys are siblings. :O

LOLLLLLL
Yeah I am 53 years old and Donna is close enough to that to be my sister (I don't think she cares about revealing her age but, anyways)...... Seriously, though, If anyone is well equipped to lead/define the discussions occuring here, I suppose that would include her.

 

[Anomaly]

Can I say, I'm actually very much enjoying the discussion in these threads (this one and the others about fetishes that I participated in, and again apologies to anyone who saw them and felt the place they were in wasn't appropriate).

I was first online looking for answers about my sexuality over 20 years ago, which included being active on the predecessor of this board (it was a sort of pink colour if I remember right). I only ever posted on the BHMFFA subforum and I think most women who used it who weren't themselves fat did the same. I remember for a lot of the time I was on it there was one very large young man who seemed to be quite conflicted about being there. He didn't like being fat and was actively trying to exercise and eat less to change his body, and yet he to some extent understood that he would never be thin and he wanted to meet women. Unfortunately a lot of his posts expressed disgust towards the women there for fetishising fat men, or claimed they were fake. Although I didn't like what he wrote at the time, I had to admit it gave me a better understanding of the perspective of being on the other side of it.

I think it is really important to be exposed to opinions you don't agree with. I stopped participating in online fora asides from occasional lurking throughout my 30s, which actually turned out to be a pretty settled part of my life. Although the Internet continues to develop and social media has come into existence, I think the general quality of this sort of interaction has not improved. In a lot of places, when discussions become interesting, people get offended and start throwing ad hominem attacks rather than debating properly and it ruins the environment, and the people with the less popular opinions give up and stop posting and it turns into an echo chamber.

The other thing that seems to come up a lot with different groups of people discussing the problems they face is that a lot of people seem to think it's zero sum, and it's not. For example, if men attracted to fat women discuss the problems they face, someone might say, shut up, women have it worse, and if thin women who are attracted to fat men discuss the difficulties they face, someone might say, oh shut up, fat women have it worse. I absolutely don't dispute that fat people and especially women do face completely unacceptable discrimination in all areas of life, but that doesn't mean people who aren't fat should feel ashamed of themselves or be prevented from discussing their problems, and if everyone is respectful it might help people to understand and to be more tolerant. It's a bit like if you went to the doctor with mental health issues, and the doctor said, oh, well, you should just be grateful you're not a woman in Afghanistan now. :-S

Thanks everyone who has participated for keeping it sane and civil.

 

[Angelette]

Off-topic but does anyone have any tips on how to have an engaging thread that isn't hot-button

 

[letters and numbers]

I have a recent reg date but I’m one of those lurkers who’s read the site for a million years. I kinda always thought that this one was “the nice site” where people talked about real life and it wasn’t just porn and kink (but there was all that good stuff too). I still think it’s that way, but real life sometimes means politics and strong emotions and comfort zones being challenged.

I think this time of year is just mega stressful too and everyone is feeling it. It’s also a good time of year for cookies, so give and take.

So I’m a stranger, but love you all and peace and good cheer, all that.

 

[waldo]

Can I say, I'm actually very much enjoying the discussion in these threads (this one and the others about fetishes that I participated in, and again apologies to anyone who saw them and felt the place they were in wasn't appropriate).

I was first online looking for answers about my sexuality over 20 years ago, which included being active on the predecessor of this board (it was a sort of pink colour if I remember right). I only ever posted on the BHMFFA subforum and I think most women who used it who weren't themselves fat did the same. I remember for a lot of the time I was on it there was one very large young man who seemed to be quite conflicted about being there. He didn't like being fat and was actively trying to exercise and eat less to change his body, and yet he to some extent understood that he would never be thin and he wanted to meet women. Unfortunately a lot of his posts expressed disgust towards the women there for fetishising fat men, or claimed they were fake. Although I didn't like what he wrote at the time, I had to admit it gave me a better understanding of the perspective of being on the other side of it.

I think it is really important to be exposed to opinions you don't agree with. I stopped participating in online fora asides from occasional lurking throughout my 30s, which actually turned out to be a pretty settled part of my life. Although the Internet continues to develop and social media has come into existence, I think the general quality of this sort of interaction has not improved. In a lot of places, when discussions become interesting, people get offended and start throwing ad hominem attacks rather than debating properly and it ruins the environment, and the people with the less popular opinions give up and stop posting and it turns into an echo chamber.

The other thing that seems to come up a lot with different groups of people discussing the problems they face is that a lot of people seem to think it's zero sum, and it's not. For example, if men attracted to fat women discuss the problems they face, someone might say, shut up, women have it worse, and if thin women who are attracted to fat men discuss the difficulties they face, someone might say, oh shut up, fat women have it worse. I absolutely don't dispute that fat people and especially women do face completely unacceptable discrimination in all areas of life, but that doesn't mean people who aren't fat should feel ashamed of themselves or be prevented from discussing their problems, and if everyone is respectful it might help people to understand and to be more tolerant. It's a bit like if you went to the doctor with mental health issues, and the doctor said, oh, well, you should just be grateful you're not a woman in Afghanistan now. :-S

Thanks everyone who has participated for keeping it sane and civil.

Wonderfully said!! Yeah, compared to what we likely would have seen develop in such a thread 15 years ago, this is a tiptoe through the tulips (youngsters look it up).

But really back to the original poster: why is it so challenging for a pretty fat gal like that to find a good man? Yes society still stigmatizes fat people, but at this point, I really think the bigger issue has become that fat people are becoming more 'accepted' BUT fat admirers are absolutely not! So this gets back to what I have posted here before: acceptance of fat admirers would by default lead to acceptance of fat people. Acceptance of fat people does not have the same effect. Instead, we get women fantasizing about meeting that rare as a 4 leaf clover guy who is atttracted to them despite/regardless of their body shape.

 

[DazzlingAnna]

@waldo I have a question. Actually two.

Can you please explain from your point of view what exactly is not accepted from society being a FA?

I have an opinion but I am not sure if that's the whole point. Being out with a fat person in almost any social situation means all the hidden and open hatred fat folks receive transfers on the person being with them. (my experience)

And how exactly would that work - FA are saviors of fat women and help them being accepted by society? How?


On a another subject...
I don't agree that fat woman are more accepted today.
I found a way to accept myself the way I am. I don't think society did.
I feel tolerated as a fat woman as long as I am of any use for someone.
Fat people still get mocked and excluded a lot. I hear and read a lot these days what I heard and read when I grew up.

I know how to deal with most of what people say or do. My own change of becoming a person with a stronger personality reduces nasty incidents.
(Woohoo, I haven't been spit on by strangers out on the street since 2005.)

I know that rare 4 leaf glover people exists. 40+ years of experience tought me - in a serious commited relationship I wouldn't settle for less than that. But that's just my opinion.

So good luck everyone.

 

[waldo]

@waldo I have a question. Actually two.

Can you please explain from your point of view what exactly is not accepted from society being a FA?

I have an opinion but I am not sure if that's the whole point. Being out with a fat person in almost any social situation means all the hidden and open hatred fat folks receive transfers on the person being with them. (my experience)

And how exactly would that work - FA are saviors of fat women and help them being accepted by society? How?


On a another subject...
I don't agree that fat woman are more accepted today.
I found a way to accept myself the way I am. I don't think society did.
I feel tolerated as a fat woman as long as I am of any use for someone.
Fat people still get mocked and excluded a lot. I hear and read a lot these days what I heard and read when I grew up.

I know how to deal with most of what people say or do. My own change of becoming a person with a stronger personality reduces nasty incidents.
(Woohoo, I haven't been spit on by strangers out on the street since 2005.)

I know that rare 4 leaf glover people exists. 40+ years of experience tought me - in a serious commited relationship I wouldn't settle for less than that. But that's just my opinion.

So good luck everyone.

If I have to explain to you why society does not accept FAs, then there is probably not much point in even trying any dialog on the topic. If you have been around for 40+ years, YOU KNOW why. Most people think guys like me who fantasize about 600lb women are freaks/fetishists/just plain weird/etc. Yes FAs can go stealth and pretend that is not their nature, and noone will be the wiser. Meanwhile fat bodies are out there for everyone to see 24/7, so it seems like an unequal playing field. But that tired old argument (oh you FAs shouldn't complain because we fat people have it so much worse) is the same one that fat women have been throwing out on this forum and elsewhere for decades. Where has it gotten you!??

My point was NOT that "FA are saviors of fat women and help them being accepted by society" if somehow we could make it for ourselves to be accepted. No the point is this: if fat admirers including those like me who were into the really big SSBBW were accepted say to the level that homosexuality was in the current climate, then by definition the object of our attraction must also be more accepted. You can't really have one without the other. But the reverse is not true: fat acceptance, size acceptance, body positivity, whatever you want to call it, does not guarantee that there would be any more tolerance of FAs (including and especially from the fat people themselves). It seems like simple logic to me, but suit yourself. You can go on being resentful of FAs (likely you have had many bad experiences with people who fall under that banner, so it is an expected response). But hoping to find some guy who is attracted to you, despite your large size, just seems a path to a less than fulfilling experience, assuming you even were to find such a man. But, yeah, you do you, and good luck!

 

[DazzlingAnna]

It seems I don't qualify to participate in this discussion due to lack of experience in life and drawing wrong conclusions from my little experience.

My bad.

Besides, I am not a friend of argumentum ad hominem.

I won't participate in a discussion about who has it worse. Exclusion and stigmatization suck for everyone who has to deal with it.
And it is a bit of a chicken-egg problem to determine who would be able to solve the dilemma we are stuck in.

I don't have anything else to add here.

 

[Anomaly]

I think acceptance of both fat bodies and people who are attracted to those with fat bodies has sadly become worse in my lifetime. :-( Or, at any rate, the way they are ostracised has changed.

My sister is fat. She is an attractive fat woman with a big bosom and wide hips and thick dark hair with such great texture it looks good even if she hasn't washed it for two days. She has been bigger than me all her life, and she has always eaten less than I do, which blows out of the water most nasty things people like to say about fat people and food. She has always been bullied and criticised for being fat, but in the past it was just 'common school bullying' directed at any visible difference and the very unfortunate criticism from our fatphobic mother who has her own issues. But at some point since the 80s and 90s and now it's changed subtly. The bullies are sanctimonious moralisers who bully now under the pretence that it's all about their victim's health and the environment. Whereas someone who was out as attracted to fat people in the past was just considered weird, now that person would most likely be accused of enabling and objectifying and exploiting and be seen as an outright villain. The attitude of general society and the media have changed. There are no longer just 'fat people', there is, we are told, an 'epidemic of obesity' (and this supposed plague of fat people somehow I never see the benefits of, as the only fat man I've seen in real life in the past six months or so is a delivery driver who sometimes comes here).

In many ways, things just go in circles. People don't get any more tolerant; the intolerance just moves to another target. I do agree that the fate of both groups are linked together.

 

[Rojodi]

I think acceptance of both fat bodies and people who are attracted to those with fat bodies has sadly become worse in my lifetime. :-( Or, at any rate, the way they are ostracised has changed.

My sister is fat. She is an attractive fat woman with a big bosom and wide hips and thick dark hair with such great texture it looks good even if she hasn't washed it for two days. She has been bigger than me all her life, and she has always eaten less than I do, which blows out of the water most nasty things people like to say about fat people and food. She has always been bullied and criticised for being fat, but in the past it was just 'common school bullying' directed at any visible difference and the very unfortunate criticism from our fatphobic mother who has her own issues. But at some point since the 80s and 90s and now it's changed subtly. The bullies are sanctimonious moralisers who bully now under the pretence that it's all about their victim's health and the environment. Whereas someone who was out as attracted to fat people in the past was just considered weird, now that person would most likely be accused of enabling and objectifying and exploiting and be seen as an outright villain. The attitude of general society and the media have changed. There are no longer just 'fat people', there is, we are told, an 'epidemic of obesity' (and this supposed plague of fat people somehow I never see the benefits of, as the only fat man I've seen in real life in the past six months or so is a delivery driver who sometimes comes here).

In many ways, things just go in circles. People don't get any more tolerant; the intolerance just moves to another target. I do agree that the fate of both groups are linked together.

I've seen acceptance as a preteen to absolute hatred as a college student to size gain some acceptance as a newly married man up to the early 2000s, and now it's being reviled for the most part.

"Oh honey, if you lose a few pounds, you'll get a man," is back in movie and tv lexicons.

 

[waldo]

It seems I don't qualify to participate in this discussion due to lack of experience in life and drawing wrong conclusions from my little experience.

My bad.

Besides, I am not a friend of argumentum ad hominem.

I won't participate in a discussion about who has it worse. Exclusion and stigmatization suck for everyone who has to deal with it.
And it is a bit of a chicken-egg problem to determine who would be able to solve the dilemma we are stuck in.

I don't have anything else to add here.

I'm sorry, I handled your questions with undue hostility. I think I may have incorrectly detected hostility from you that was more than you had intended. And I assume by ad hominem, you are referring to how I said "You can go on being resentful of FAs". That was certainly an inappropriate and unfair assumption on my part.

It turns out that I was mulling this over since my last response to you. Now I am sort of thinking that your odds of finding a really good FA (and I don't know how fat you are and what limitations your size may involve, but the bigger, the more the FA must be committed to making things work) may not be that much better than finding what I referred to as the 4 leaf clover guy who is not that interested in your size one way or the other. Yeah the FAs are out there, but they are mostly assholes, especially online. I suspect you received unwarranted attention from some 'creepers' when you posted this thread and that was why you pulled your picture down.

Your experience is NOT lacking. That is for sure. And you are right, the ultimate litmus test for the FA is how he handles being with a fat woman there in public or even more so in front of his friends and family.

Your comment "And it is a bit of a chicken-egg problem to determine who would be able to solve the dilemma we are stuck in." is right on target. Just because I said acceptance of FAs and acceptance of fat people could be achieved in some sort of concerted manner, I like you, am not at all sure how such a thing could come about. It was just something I have been thinking for a long time now. If I had an idea how to set it in motion I sure would like to try.

Anyways I really do wish you well............

 

[waldo]

I think acceptance of both fat bodies and people who are attracted to those with fat bodies has sadly become worse in my lifetime. :-( Or, at any rate, the way they are ostracised has changed.

My sister is fat. She is an attractive fat woman with a big bosom and wide hips and thick dark hair with such great texture it looks good even if she hasn't washed it for two days. She has been bigger than me all her life, and she has always eaten less than I do, which blows out of the water most nasty things people like to say about fat people and food. She has always been bullied and criticised for being fat, but in the past it was just 'common school bullying' directed at any visible difference and the very unfortunate criticism from our fatphobic mother who has her own issues. But at some point since the 80s and 90s and now it's changed subtly. The bullies are sanctimonious moralisers who bully now under the pretence that it's all about their victim's health and the environment. Whereas someone who was out as attracted to fat people in the past was just considered weird, now that person would most likely be accused of enabling and objectifying and exploiting and be seen as an outright villain. The attitude of general society and the media have changed. There are no longer just 'fat people', there is, we are told, an 'epidemic of obesity' (and this supposed plague of fat people somehow I never see the benefits of, as the only fat man I've seen in real life in the past six months or so is a delivery driver who sometimes comes here).

In many ways, things just go in circles. People don't get any more tolerant; the intolerance just moves to another target. I do agree that the fate of both groups are linked together.

Some really excellent points here. I thought to include this issue of 'health' as one of the arguments that are more recently put front and center against FAs and fat people themselves, but decided not to because it is such a can of worms. So now the line is not 'oh she is gross, what do you do roll her in flour to find the wet spot?' but instead is "How can you be attracted to that fat tub of lard who is on the verge of a massive heart attack". The discrimination is relentless and without mercy. We (Fas and fat people both) really are pretty much fucked either way.

Good point about your sister who is just naturally fat. So many morons (especially online) are still running around spewing that simplistic trope that it is all about the 'proper balance' of calories in and calories out (aka physical activity), but it is so not like that for so many people in reality and as we get older even more so.

The epidemic of obesity rhetoric has been very harmful. The beating the drum that fat people are much more likely to die from COVID19 sure didn't help (but 5 times a very small number is still a very small number). Anyways, this could be a whole new thread, but thanks for bringing up very pertinent poiunts !!

 

[Angelette]

My Filipino mom used to hope for me to be skinny and sexy. Emphasis on skinny. My Filipino aunt scolded me to not drink pop when I was considering on losing weight. Even though that was my choice to drink pop. I was a minor at the time.

It's so sad to even see ridiculing on young bodies even to this day. It even disgusts me how American schools are double standard on women when it comes to so-called dress code.

 

[Anomaly]

I thought to include this issue of 'health' as one of the arguments that are more recently put front and centre against FAs and fat people themselves, but decided not to because it is such a can of worms. So now the line is not 'oh she is gross, what do you do roll her in flour to find the wet spot?' but instead is "How can you be attracted to that fat tub of lard who is on the verge of a massive heart attack". The discrimination is relentless and without mercy. We (Fas and fat people both) really are pretty much fucked either way.

That's really horrible that another man presumably said that to you. People used to bully with comments that were just gut-level vile like this, and they bullied pretty much everyone who was in any way different. While my sister was bullied for being fat, I was bullied for being thin, with comments like, you look like a corpse, you look like a boy, no man will ever want you because you don't have any tits (this was the era of Pamela Anderson, and until my mid twenties I was terrified of the idea of actually getting into a relationship with someone to the point I would have to take my clothes off in front of him). These days, I don't think bullying is as blunt, but in being more subtle, it's more insidious as doing it under the cover of being concerned about someone's health in a way sanitises it and makes it more acceptable, and if people are internalising nasty messages about health, both the fat and the fat-attracted, it's probably harder to overcome the mental baggage from that as we mature.

Bullying for a lot of things other than being fat I suspect has become more taboo or at least remains unchanged. Picking on someone for being thin or having a trait supposedly associated with the opposite sex can't be justified and sanitised in this way.

 

[waldo]

That's really horrible that another man presumably said that to you. People used to bully with comments that were just gut-level vile like this, and they bullied pretty much everyone who was in any way different. While my sister was bullied for being fat, I was bullied for being thin, with comments like, you look like a corpse, you look like a boy, no man will ever want you because you don't have any tits (this was the era of Pamela Anderson, and until my mid twenties I was terrified of the idea of actually getting into a relationship with someone to the point I would have to take my clothes off in front of him). These days, I don't think bullying is as blunt, but in being more subtle, it's more insidious as doing it under the cover of being concerned about someone's health in a way sanitises it and makes it more acceptable, and if people are internalising nasty messages about health, both the fat and the fat-attracted, it's probably harder to overcome the mental baggage from that as we mature.

Bullying for a lot of things other than being fat I suspect has become more taboo or at least remains unchanged. Picking on someone for being thin or having a trait supposedly associated with the opposite sex can't be justified and sanitised in this way.

Just to clarify: the old line about 'rolling her in flour' was a common one back when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s (as a teenager and 20 something, respectively). Although I recall hearing people, including some I considered to be friends say this tired old line back then, it was mostly when we might be out at a bar and he would comment on some fat girl, so not directed at me and anyone I was actually with. But then think: - yeah I am really gonna go over and try to pick her up after hearing that. It pains me to think back to my youth and how many girls I might otherwise have approached if not for the 'fear' of peer disapproval/disdain. I was a coward back then and am mostly still a coward now (although I did get my feet under me in my mid-20s and mostly got over the peer pressure issue). This moral high ground they (fat bashers) are claiming over the health issues, excessive strain on the healthcare system and such is presenting a whole new level of daunting resistance.

I recently started hearing this term 'black pill'. Not really understanding WTF they mean by this, I just looked it up and found it may be originated from angry males/incels online. But in a more general sense it can mean that we should just be resigned to our fate because we are just fucked (or blessed for success) no matter what we do. It apparently refers to a type of nihilism, where one throws up their hands and says 'nothing matters because it is all fate and my likely fate is just misery'. I think it is becoming a real problem with the young people these days - it seems so many no longer have dreams of achieving things and a happy life. It's like we are reverting back to old times where life was miserable, brutal and short for the vast majority. So why am I bringing this up: it would be so easy to throw in the towel and say this fat acceptance thing is dead/dying and we FAs and fat people are pretty much screwed, so don't even bother. BUT there are still people willing to put their stake in the ground (like a guy I posted about on another thread recently where I observed him and his 400+ lb wife and their 2 nice little kids out at the store). Life is hard and a total fucking *****: but we should not give up. I know, easier said than done, but if you want to do something and it means a lot to you, just go for it, because the years and decades of regrets of not having done so will be a constant theme in your life in the future. **** what people think!!

 

[agouderia]

I think acceptance of both fat bodies and people who are attracted to those with fat bodies has sadly become worse in my lifetime. :-( Or, at any rate, the way they are ostracised has changed.

While I agree 100% with what you wrote, equating the situation of fat people with that of FA's in objective terms, looking at numbers and scope of the problem, simply has nothing to do with reality.

Fat people - when using the simple BMI scale of overweight & obese - are actually the majority in most Western societies.
Even when only applying the obese category to classify who is "fat", then fat people most likely still account for the largest single ostracised "minority" group in most countries accounting for 25-40% of the respective populations.

That amounts to literally hundreds of millions of people who face regular discrimination, marginalization, ridicule and denied life chances in almost all aspects of their being: work, relationships, health care, representation in the public sphere, etc.

And the worst thing is that fat discrimination is socially applauded and promoted - something that is unthinkable with almost all other individual characteristics of any given person.
Making fat discrimination one of the biggest social problems with respect to its numeric scale as well as scope on individual lives.

FAs in turn - FFAs admittedly face less of a problem for 2 reasons - "only" face ridicule and discrimination with regards to their individual sexual preference in partners. That can be personally extremely conflictive and despressing, but in practical terms is has much less of an effect on an individual's overall life situation.

As far as numbers go: as mentioned fat people are large - in every sense of the word - minorities in most societies.
Do we have any sound evidence as to the prevalence of FAs in the male population in Western societies? Not that I am aware of.
Most surveys for decades though have come to the conclusion that full-fledged sexual preferences in general account for max. 12-15% of any given population. So FAs at best number to only a fraction of fat people.
In addition, outside of in-groups on the issue, I still am extremely sceptical how many respondents would even correctly identify what "FA" means in a general poll. It is a concept mainstream society is largely oblivious of.

Bottom line - the chicken or egg question is easy to answer in this case simply based on the magnitude of the problem. If fat discrimination were finally outlawed in the same way other forms of social ostracism are, life would be a lot easier for fat people and in consequence their admirers.

 

[waldo]

While I agree 100% with what you wrote, equating the situation of fat people with that of FA's in objective terms, looking at numbers and scope of the problem, simply has nothing to do with reality.

Fat people - when using the simple BMI scale of overweight & obese - are actually the majority in most Western societies.
Even when only applying the obese category to classify who is "fat", then fat people most likely still account for the largest single ostracised "minority" group in most countries accounting for 25-40% of the respective populations.

That amounts to literally hundreds of millions of people who face regular discrimination, marginalization, ridicule and denied life chances in almost all aspects of their being: work, relationships, health care, representation in the public sphere, etc.

And the worst thing is that fat discrimination is socially applauded and promoted - something that is unthinkable with almost all other individual characteristics of any given person.
Making fat discrimination one of the biggest social problems with respect to its numeric scale as well as scope on individual lives.

FAs in turn - FFAs admittedly face less of a problem for 2 reasons - "only" face ridicule and discrimination with regards to their individual sexual preference in partners. That can be personally extremely conflictive and despressing, but in practical terms is has much less of an effect on an individual's overall life situation.

As far as numbers go: as mentioned fat people are large - in every sense of the word - minorities in most societies.
Do we have any sound evidence as to the prevalence of FAs in the male population in Western societies? Not that I am aware of.
Most surveys for decades though have come to the conclusion that full-fledged sexual preferences in general account for max. 12-15% of any given population. So FAs at best number to only a fraction of fat people.
In addition, outside of in-groups on the issue, I still am extremely sceptical how many respondents would even correctly identify what "FA" means in a general poll. It is a concept mainstream society is largely oblivious of.

Bottom line - the chicken or egg question is easy to answer in this case simply based on the magnitude of the problem. If fat discrimination were finally outlawed in the same way other forms of social ostracism are, life would be a lot easier for fat people and in consequence their admirers.

Well when you say "If fat discrimination were finally outlawed in the same way other forms of social ostracism are"; I think you come close to completely missing the point. This goes beyond anything that any 'law' can solve.
Otherwise, I agree with much of your comments. Fat people outnumber FAs at least 4 to 1. And what even constitutes an FA is in question, as you also described. I tend to think there are levels/degrees. Like the guy who appreciates a little more junk in the trunk and a gal in the 150-250 lb range is one thing. The guy like myself whose ideal (at least theoretically) is 600+ lbs is a whole different story. But, I can't agree that the chicken and egg quandary is "easy to answer" based on the magnitude. That is an easy answer but misses too many nuances. First and foremost, I really feel that most fat women hate male FAs (much of that deserved due to bad behavior on part of these FAs) but a good chunk of it can be attributed largely to the self-loathing that the majority of fat people have due to their conditioning by society. So when FAs say it is not easy to find fat women to date, they are not necessarily full of it - many fat people are voluntarily removing themselves from the dating pool due to judging themselves unworthy and/or judging anyone interested in them to have some ulterior/suspicious motives.

 

[Anomaly]

FAs in turn - FFAs admittedly face less of a problem for 2 reasons - "only" face ridicule and discrimination with regards to their individual sexual preference in partners. That can be personally extremely conflictive and despressing, but in practical terms is has much less of an effect on an individual's overall life situation.

While I'm absolutely not claiming that the abject discrimination fat people face in any way compares to the problems fat-attracted people have, it is definitely more complicated than just prejudice against one's sexual preference. While it doesn't affect you in things like applying for a job and accessing healthcare, it does heavily impact your ability to find a partner at all and to have a fulfilling long-term relationship, and a lot of the reason it does is because of prejudice against fat people and the impact it has on their attitudes to their own bodies and to relationships.

From my experience, fat men my age where I've lived and worked have always been rare. The statistics might suggest they're not, but a lot of those considered 'obese' who are male are either athletes or muscular men with big guts. Many more of them are middle-aged or older and are already in relationships, but weren't fat in their 20s and 30s when most people are looking. Throughout my secondary school life, there were four boys in the entire year who were fat (one was a bully, one was just dull and not attractive in terms of personality, one of them I liked but never got to the point of asking, the last I did ask and he rejected me). At college, there was one man in the course I was doing in a class of 50 or so who was fat (sat next to and spoke to him once and he was dull and showed no enthusiasm so there was no point going any further). One place of work had a fat man in it (he told me he had never been attracted to anyone male or female, and only had friends and never relationships).

Even when you come across someone who's fat, the odds are stacked against you. If you chance to see someone who's your type in a public place you have to be prepared to approach aggressively and do all the legwork. He will not approach you. I've seen advice that seems dumb to me that a woman who wants to meet people should go to a bar and sit somewhere prominent and men will approach her, but other women I know have said they actually do that. There's some idiotic rule apparently where men compare where they are on some scale of attractiveness and decide what the woman is compared to them and approach based on that, which is rubbish because attractiveness can't be evaluated objectively. But unfortunately there's an assortative mating thing that apparently goes on if it's left to that, and there are certain rules like men don't approach women taller than them and fat men will only approach fat women, etc. so unless you fit that paradigm it isn't going to work.

Even if you do have the courage to approach men, a large proportion of them will not be interested. Some of them are gay or just not interested in anyone. Men are constantly being told by society that they must not be fat if they want to be attracted to women, so guess what, men who aren't interested in being attractive to women don't care if they're fat, and men who do care about that will go to enormous lengths not to be fat.

Of the ones that you might stand a chance with, some of them are going to think you're a con artist or there's some other ulterior motive. Some of them are going to be scared of assertive women. Some of them are going to hate being fat and be really messed up about someone else finding their bodies attractive and intimacy generally.

The other thing is, if he's in a group with his mates, it makes it impossible to approach him. Men on their own are usually pleasant enough, but groups of men are not pleasant to women. Your best bet is to work with another woman who's interested in one of the others and have a plan to break up their little boys' club. But chances are you aren't out about your preferences to your women friends and it's awkward and that's not going to work.

If against all these odds you do manage to get a long-term relationship with a fat man who isn't a psychological trainwreck who hates his own body, you have the other issues such as all the health stigma as he gets older and the risk of the medical establishment persuading him to have bariatric surgery and turning him into an emaciated malnourished depressive who can't enjoy food any more.

Not the same problems fat people themselves face, for sure, but they are problems. Yes, if we can't get a job it's not for that reason, yes we can just opt out, but the opt-out options are either being alone for life or having a sham relationship with a man who's not fat or a woman, which isn't fair on the other person when they could be with someone else who doesn't feel cold and bored when they try to be intimate. :-(