The dangers of fat acceptance

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EMH1701

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Let me get this straight, just so I can understand. Because you and another person or two are ignorant of a word with multiple meanings usage, it is beholden to the speaker of that word to intuitively *know* this and change their word choice accordingly? I have little doubt that just as many knew exactly what she was referring to when using that word, and even those that were possibly unsure at least didn't feel the need to risk injury in their jump down from their moral high horse to put the boots to someone, metaphorically that is.:shocked:

Plus, are you also saying that, never mind centuries of English literature and theatre and over 100 years of highly regarded cinema, that you are going to base your entire knowledge of a word's full English usage by whether or not it has been used in a sub-par science fiction show that happens to have somewhat of a cult following?

Yeah, seriously?
Sub-par is your opinion only. Not everyone agrees with you on this particular subject. I've also read multiple works by British authors, including J.K. Rowling, Douglas Adams, C.S. Lewis, and Ian MacLeod. Those of us who are interested in sci-fi/fantasy fiction usually make it a point to search out authors with different perspectives, since that usually means more creative fiction.

In any case, yes, the responsibility is on the person who is communicating to choose a word that does not have ambiguous meaning to the other party. If I went to London or Australia and made a presentation to a company there in a business sense, I would absolutely be expected to know the difference of the meaning of the words, and would thus have to write my speech accordingly.

It cannot be assumed in a multi-cultural situation such as an Internet forum that everyone knows every single possible usage of a word which has multiple meanings in different contexts. Therefore, I will continue to argue that anyone writing on an Internet forum, especially one read by people from different countries, should err on the side of caution with word choices, myself included. There was obviously no ill intent here...it was a cultural misunderstanding. But again, I believe in being cautious.
 

superodalisque

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The vast majority of people in America do equate fat with disgusting, so why would you assume any of us would interpret the word "gross" differently when it is used in a sentence referring to weight gain?
because we should know better and because we aren't the rest of society and should not be interpolating everything the way some in the general public might. if fat folk and people who claim they support them are always thinking of the gross as a reflection of them as a first option just maybe they have issues they still haven't worked out for themselves yet and should. why should anyone here have to orient themselves to the language of prejudice especially among fat people and people who claim to support them.

there was a time when the word lazy was associated with black folk as in the N word and the word niggardly. why? because slaveholders wanted more free work out of people they could control. so call them lazy to make them work harder. should i as an enlightened black person today take offense at the word lazy? no i shouldn't. people want fat folk to automatically think they are "gross" to sell them diet junk. we shouldn't be falling into that trap.

maybe that perspective should rethought instead of defended . yes people here are "ordinary people" but only to a point. most here are extraordinarily fat and are attracted to those who are extraordinarily fat. so that puts more responsibility on them not to absorb the prejudice of the outside world and reflect it back by continuing to agree with prejudice against by associating themselves with the most negative aspect of the word gross.

maybe the question should be why is it that when someone uses the word gross some automatically associate it with fat people. they might have some deep seeded prejudices of their own because they are agreeing with the portion of society that would automatically make that association. it does seem like a self hating reaction to me. sounds like someone familiar with the perspective of the closet and someone who thinks they are fat and look gross to me.
 

Blackjack

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maybe the question should be why is it that when someone uses the word gross some automatically associate it with fat people. they might have some deep seeded prejudices of their own because they are agreeing with the portion of society that would automatically make that association. it does seem like a self hating reaction to me. sounds like someone familiar with the perspective of the closet and someone who thinks they are fat and look gross to me.
It actually has to do with the phrase "gross weight gain", which are the exact words that were used. And as that phrase is coming from someone who considers fat people to be "harming themselves", I think that the misinterpretation of the word "gross" as disgusting is not at all far-fetched.
 

superodalisque

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It actually has to do with the phrase "gross weight gain", which are the exact words that were used. And as that phrase is coming from someone who considers fat people to be "harming themselves", I think that the misinterpretation of the word "gross" as disgusting is not at all far-fetched.
like she said it's like the term gross pay. it's not her fault if other people make negative assumptions. if she thinks fat people are harming themselves that's her opinion but don't help her out by automatically associating your fat friends with being gross. it's understandable but not emotionally healthy and it could end up making an unintended point for her position. we've got to stop making that connection in our own minds altogether if were really believe we are equal.
 

Blackjack

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like she said it's like the term gross pay. it's not her fault if other people make negative assumptions. if she thinks fat people are harming themselves that's her opinion but don't help her out by automatically associating your fat friends with being gross. it's understandable but not emotionally healthy and it could end up making an unintended point for her position. we've got to stop making that connection in our own minds altogether if were really believe we are equal.
Sorry, in the future I'll stop thinking that someone who has used insulting terms towards fat people is using an insulting word towards fat people when that word has another, lesser-used definition that is slightly more common in other areas of the world.

But while we're doing armchair psychology, I'd go ahead and say that your acceptance of her insults, your defense of her harmful opinions, would indicate a level of discomfort and hatred towards yourself and your body and that's not emotionally healthy at all. It'd be awesome if for once you could actually get a grip on how grossly* ignorant you are and how nonconstructive your lengthy commentary proves to be time and time again, especially when it involves telling people who are put off by an insulting phrase that they have to fix how they think about things, as though they are to blame for being insulted by someone rather than the person throwing the insults.

Alternatively this whole thing could be avoided by not insulting many of the site members with shit that can be heard everywhere else in the fucking world- another fact that is likely to cause it to be taken as something offensive.

*you choose the definition.
 

AuntHen

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I was thinking the other day as I was driving home from my local Asda-Walmart with my GIANT 96 Tootsie Roll barrel in the boot of my car, past McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, along the road from The Golden Chip and Chicken Cottage, turning right at the corner of Stephen's the Bakers and Ameri-Kandy and taking a sharp left at Marmaris fast food outlet thats right next door to The Sweet Stop, Greggs the Bakers, Ashoka Shak, Buffet King, Pizza Boy, Seven Spices, Hong Kong Take Away, Deep Blue Fish Bar, Alari's Chip Shop, Chiquitto's and KFC - I remember thinking WHERE'S A BLOODY GREEN GROCER IN THIS TOWN??????

Fat Acceptance is the only way we CAN go when a person can only see fast food joints for miles and not one fruit and veg monger! Society and our Western culture has a lot to answer for when it cannot accept and embrace the 'human product' that comes of it's highly processed, fat drenched, quick, cheap and easy "food" stuffs (said very loosely!).

It angers me when we are ostricised for being fat in a food culture that flies the banner for heart disease, strokes and cancer but sells a measley salad bowl, two fruit bags and bottled water thinking that is a sufficiently "healthy" choice to select from WHEREAS the flip-side of its menu has countless burgers, and array of shakes, multitudes of ice cream desserts and sundaes not to mention the pies, brownies and muffins - and says it gives "healthy options" to patrons! The only skinny thing on that menu is the "healthy options section"!!!! It is a Catch 22 and makes no sense at all to me. Fat Acceptance is no bother (fat is by-product of the food industry after all) but crappy, cheap, chemical packed and a potentially lethal food culture that assists in the health detererioration of the nation and targetting the wallets and purses of the poor, that I cannot condone or accept. I didn't mean this to be a rant folks, just food culture and societal values really make me fizz! How do they expect people NOT to get fat on that diet and then reject all notions of Fat Acceptance stating there are other choices! 1ltr or Coke (Big Gulp), a Snickers Bar and a family size bag of Doritos for 99c in Texas (according to BBC Documentary "The Men Who Made Us Fat") - I mean, come on! xXx
I understand what you are saying but I also have a problem with your post.

I am fat but I cook most of my meals at home and try to buy organic as often as possible. I eat a wide variety of fruit, vegetables, etc. I would rather make it myself than buy the "bland imitations".

I absolutely hate the assumption that if a person is fat they must be eating "garbage". Maybe I eat too much of said food but I love and prefer "good quality food". It really offends me as a fatty... I mean hello! if anyone is going to know what the best food is, it's most likely going to be a fatty :p
 

veggieforever

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I understand what you are saying but I also have a problem with your post.

I am fat but I cook most of my meals at home and try to buy organic as often as possible. I eat a wide variety of fruit, vegetables, etc. I would rather make it myself than buy the "bland imitations".

I absolutely hate the assumption that if a person is fat they must be eating "garbage". Maybe I eat too much of said food but I love and prefer "good quality food". It really offends me as a fatty... I mean hello! if anyone is going to know what the best food is, it's most likely going to be a fatty :p
My post emphasises the fact that obesity is growing due to the fact that fast food joints are EVERYWHERE and people are not cooking at home as much as they used to fifty years ago and cooking meals via steam cookers, boiling and not in deep fat friers etc, so I fail to see where the problem is :confused: My post was to put a few different POV's across and not just give empty lip service to Fat Acceptance. If you re-read the post you will see that was my only point and not to point the finger. If anything people are not so much to blame for their weight as the ENVIRONMENT they are in. It has been proved that fast foods are addictive and so it can sometimes see a little futile for society at large to expect ANYONE to be average or healthy weight when every food option outside of the house is a fast food one! It's great you are eating healthier home cooked meals. The happiest days I have are spent in my kitchen. It gives a person greater control over what they put into their bodies and when a person eats out as a treat once in a while it just tastes so much better! :eat2:

 

AuntHen

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Well, I don't really think food is so much the problem. I grew up in the 80's all that stuff was around and during the World Wars, a lot of processed food was invented/around and people were not as fat.

To me the big difference/culprit... transportation, remote controls, video games, computers, push buttons, gadgets, technology!

I mean the fact that people go to GYMS to get physical activity is just so absurd to me. People used to have big farms and walk a lot. I really think food is sometimes the LEAST to blame but people are still going to say "oh those fatties... they just eat at McDonalds!"

As long as everyone wants things SNAP BOOM in an instant at their fingertips, the higher possibility of overweight people there are going to be. It's a trend that society should have planned for/realized long ago (or at least admitted to).
 

veggieforever

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Well, I don't really think food is so much the problem. I grew up in the 80's all that stuff was around and during the World Wars, a lot of processed food was invented/around and people were not as fat.

To me the big difference/culprit... transportation, remote controls, video games, computers, push buttons, gadgets, technology!

I mean the fact that people go to GYMS to get physical activity is just so absurd to me. People used to have big farms and walk a lot. I really think food is sometimes the LEAST to blame but people are still going to say "oh those fatties... they just eat at McDonalds!"

As long as everyone wants things SNAP BOOM in an instant at their fingertips, the higher possibility of overweight people there are going to be. It's a trend that society should have planned for/realized long ago (or at least admitted to).


I agree with your post completely but you cannot have excessive weight gain with a sedentery lifestyle alone. You need the fast food to go with it and there are a gazillion more fast food joints now than in the 80's and since their launch here in Britain in the 80's our nation has just gotten fatter and fatter. I also include processed sugary foods in that too not just fast food places but the availability of high calorie foods has (pardon the pun!) "saturated" our supermarkets and nationwide shops and sugar dense, calorie laden foods are just a few steps away from anyones reach as well as pizza and fast food delivery services that will come to us. The sedentery lifestyle assists in leaps and bounds but we cannot have one without the other. It would take truck loads of fruit and vegetables to hit exorbitant amounts of weight gain so we must be realistic and say that being overweight has everything to do with calorie dense food and not the opposite. We wouldnt have the epidemic we have today if not for the fast foods and convenience foods available. The Brit documentary "The Men Who Made Us Fat" is available to view on Youtube and backs up my statements entirely.
 

Dr. Feelgood

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To me the big difference/culprit... transportation, remote controls, video games, computers, push buttons, gadgets, technology!
I also include processed sugary foods in that too not just fast food places but the availability of high calorie foods has (pardon the pun!) "saturated" our supermarkets and nationwide.
I believe you're both right. As fat9276 pointed out, there has been an entire lifestyle change over the last sixty years. Before WWII, about 70% of the population was rural and 30% was urban; by 1990, the percentages had reversed. As the cities grew, urban real estate became more expensive, people moved farther, out, and commute time grew. In 2002 I read that the average commute time in the San Francisco area was two hours. So more and more people have less and less time and space in which to exercise: add that to the mix. And there are also the obesogens to consider -- chemical compounds in the environment that stimulate our bodies to develop more fat cells. At the present time, a chemical used in the lining of aluminum food cans is being investigated as an obesogen; it 'leaks' into the food in the can, and preliminary studies indicate that it causes people who ingest it to develop additional fat cells: add that to the mix! I'm sure we've just scratched the surface. The fact is that we have gradually -- and largely unknowingly -- created a world in which iit is difficult not to be fat ... and then blamed the fat people for it. :doh:
 

superodalisque

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Sorry, in the future I'll stop thinking that someone who has used insulting terms towards fat people is using an insulting word towards fat people when that word has another, lesser-used definition that is slightly more common in other areas of the world.

But while we're doing armchair psychology, I'd go ahead and say that your acceptance of her insults, your defense of her harmful opinions, would indicate a level of discomfort and hatred towards yourself and your body and that's not emotionally healthy at all. It'd be awesome if for once you could actually get a grip on how grossly* ignorant you are and how nonconstructive your lengthy commentary proves to be time and time again, especially when it involves telling people who are put off by an insulting phrase that they have to fix how they think about things, as though they are to blame for being insulted by someone rather than the person throwing the insults.

Alternatively this whole thing could be avoided by not insulting many of the site members with shit that can be heard everywhere else in the fucking world- another fact that is likely to cause it to be taken as something offensive.

*you choose the definition.
no it indicates confidence in myself because i already know i'm not gross. i don't think other fat people are gross and her opinions of me or them could never make me feel that way. i'm not a weakling. i can take her opinions.

on this site people get offended by absolutely everything. a lot come here itching for a fight. that's okay. but i don't have to adopt that tact because i don't blame how i feel about myself on other people. in fact i could care less about why someone agrees with my being fat or not. i agree with my size and that's all that really matters.

being butt hurt everyday over prejudice gets you nowhere. only social action does. there are enough truly bad things happening to fat folk like medical discrimination etc... to fight that i don't have to erroneously knit pick something someone says particularly if there is enough other open and clear evidence available. don't make yourself look bad by flying off the handle at something that doesn't make linguistic sense especially when there are probably so many other things that are more solid to point to. arguing about every little thing, especially when you are wrong about the meaning, can make you look flighty. pick your battles so that they'd make sense to anyone and stop weakening your own position. when you debate somebody you have to use our brain as well as your heart. don't let your emotions have so much free reign that they take away the power of your argument. and above all don't make your need to be right make you start to look silly.

i think people in the community often have their hearts in the right place but they don't always think when they react. that's why sometimes when we debate in public we end up on the losing end. this can be a good place to practice the discipline and to sharpen our teeth for public debate. it could actually be a good thing to have some opposition here. it will make us better when it counts. besides, most adults have figured out some folks are just never going to agree with them. that's life.

if it makes you feel better you can fill out one of these:

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superodalisque

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i don't think "bad foods" are necessarily the only reasons people are fat. i almost never eat fast food and i'm fat. i probably have it maybe once or twice a year. in fact i usually eat organically. but what people often forget is that healthy food is not necessarily low calorie so that has absolutely nothing to do with weight. i know fat vegans etc...

however, i do think the processed foods have a whole lot to do with illness. i also think it is a component in why a lot of americans are fat these days. ever since companies like monsanto started putting hormones in milk and other companies started selling feed with hormones to meat producing concerns for poultry pork and beef to gain weight and mature quickly we've seen people get a lot bigger a lot faster and earlier and in greater percentages. the size doesn't bother me but what does bother me is the huge rise in early puberty, and various cancers and diabetes that i feel have nothing to do with size alone but rather the toxins being introduced into all of our bodies. fat is where people store these toxins. but being thin has not exempted anyone from getting these conditions either. people don't think about the fact that most people are "overweight" so it would stand to reason that a greater percentage of us might present with certain diseases, just because there are numerically more of us specially as we get older when there is even ore exposure to potential disease..

fat has never been shown scientifically to be an illness. in fact the opposite has generally been true. and even those diseases they claim are fat related are a part of what is called an obesity paradigm in medicine, meaning that the assumption is that being fat causes disease but there is no statistical analysis that actually supports that. in fact every major study ever done on disease contains this obesity paradigm. fat itself has just been an easy scapegoat for doctors who just don't know or care about how to diagnose for a long time. it's only now with healthcare costs getting so out of sight for hospitals that doctors have seriously begun to look at actual causality that can be quantified rather than assumed because hospitals are now going to have to bear the actual costs of their misdiagnosis under Obamacare. for instance they're going to get charged a fine if you are sent home and have to come back to the hospital again with complications. so i have a theory that our health is going to be looked into in a more serious way in the future.

just like everybody else or maybe moreso, since we are basically little storage modules, fat folk need to concern themselves with exactly WHAT they are putting in their bodies rather than how much they put in them.
 

loopytheone

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I agree with your post completely but you cannot have excessive weight gain with a sedentery lifestyle alone. You need the fast food to go with it and there are a gazillion more fast food joints now than in the 80's and since their launch here in Britain in the 80's our nation has just gotten fatter and fatter. I also include processed sugary foods in that too not just fast food places but the availability of high calorie foods has (pardon the pun!) "saturated" our supermarkets and nationwide shops and sugar dense, calorie laden foods are just a few steps away from anyones reach as well as pizza and fast food delivery services that will come to us. The sedentery lifestyle assists in leaps and bounds but we cannot have one without the other. It would take truck loads of fruit and vegetables to hit exorbitant amounts of weight gain so we must be realistic and say that being overweight has everything to do with calorie dense food and not the opposite. We wouldnt have the epidemic we have today if not for the fast foods and convenience foods available. The Brit documentary "The Men Who Made Us Fat" is available to view on Youtube and backs up my statements entirely.
As a lactose intolerant vegetarian who rarely eats anything that isn't home cooked from scratch - thank you very much mummy! - and whom is medically obese I think it is a bit of a scapegoat to say that fast food or whatever is primarily responsible for rising rates of obesity. There are a myriad of causes for it; you seem to be well educated so I'm guessing you are aware of this, my point is just that your posts come off as though you are blaming solely one aspect, junk food. Oddly, five years ago when I ate a lot of processed, high sugar food and didn't have access to most fruits and vegetables I was of a medically normal weight. Now that I have stopped eating such things and started eating meals cooked from home I am medically obese (all 165lbs of me). The type of food available to people is bound to make a big difference and I agree that having so much absolute rubbish around to eat is bound to be an influencing factor in the spread of obesity. But you should be careful not to label it as the main or sole cause for the increase in obesity rates as everybody is different, slender people are exposed to the same 'food environment', so to speak, and everybody is different. It is an interesting point you raised though.
 

AuntHen

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I agree with your post completely but you cannot have excessive weight gain with a sedentery lifestyle alone. You need the fast food to go with it and there are a gazillion more fast food joints now than in the 80's and since their launch here in Britain in the 80's our nation has just gotten fatter and fatter. I also include processed sugary foods in that too not just fast food places but the availability of high calorie foods has (pardon the pun!) "saturated" our supermarkets and nationwide shops and sugar dense, calorie laden foods are just a few steps away from anyones reach as well as pizza and fast food delivery services that will come to us. The sedentery lifestyle assists in leaps and bounds but we cannot have one without the other. It would take truck loads of fruit and vegetables to hit exorbitant amounts of weight gain so we must be realistic and say that being overweight has everything to do with calorie dense food and not the opposite. We wouldnt have the epidemic we have today if not for the fast foods and convenience foods available. The Brit documentary "The Men Who Made Us Fat" is available to view on Youtube and backs up my statements entirely.
With technology, came the ability for mass production. If you walked 5 miles to get your fast food, you would most likely not be fat. Malnourished and sickly maybe but I highly doubt *fat*. There are a lot of "slender" and/or "average" people who eat this stuff daily also (especially teens). I would even argue that this type of diet could actually starve you (from lack of nutrients, fiber, etc).

We can argue "which came first, the chicken or the egg" but in this case, the chicken (aka, machinery, etc).

You can sit on your couch and order pizza. Take your car to the nearest Wendy's. Put a frozen dinner in the microwave. The list goes on and on. Everything is there at the touch of a button

We have become/are becoming an easily bored, sedentary society. Regardless of where we get our calories, we aren't really doing anything to burn them off.

My main point was/is, people need to stop stereotyping fat people as the "fast food mongers". If you take Dimensions Food Board for example, you will see a large number of fat people here making and loving good old-fashioned homemade food.
 

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True.... but don't you think in way or another, they maybe a necessary evil? there are people who use it right?
I should have multi-quoted...

Umm, could you please elaborate how this could be necessary? I fail to see your logic.
 

truebebeblue

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Some WLS does this. The sleeve does reduce the ghreling effect. I have very little physical hunger... like 1/100 of pre-op. I have to say it is very liberating. I do not believe the bypass has this same benefit and therefore the old stomach is still sitting empty and shooting that hunger signal to the brain and never gets relief.



There's actually some truth to this. WLS cuts nerves that send messages to the brain regarding hunger. Indeed it seems to me that just cutting the appropriate nerves without butchering a patients digestive system could be an effective means of promoting weight loss.
 

bigmac

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Some WLS does this. The sleeve does reduce the ghreling effect. I have very little physical hunger... like 1/100 of pre-op. I have to say it is very liberating. I do not believe the bypass has this same benefit and therefore the old stomach is still sitting empty and shooting that hunger signal to the brain and never gets relief.
Not an expert in this area but a good friend who had a gastric bypass told me that she wasn't physically hungry after her surgery and that her doctor said this was because (while the stomach was still present) nerves linking the stomach to the brain had been severed.
 

EMH1701

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i don't think "bad foods" are necessarily the only reasons people are fat. i almost never eat fast food and i'm fat. i probably have it maybe once or twice a year. in fact i usually eat organically. but what people often forget is that healthy food is not necessarily low calorie so that has absolutely nothing to do with weight. i know fat vegans etc...
I agree. I think a lot of it is genetics. Some of it is lack of exercise. Many of us have desk jobs now, and we are expected to actually sit and do work all day. I have been actually yelled at years ago, when I was working as a temp doing data entry, simply because I wanted to get up and stretch my legs for five minutes. In the U.S., companies do have to give breaks if you are working full-time. It is not good when managers discount that. And then they wonder why employees gain weight.

I read somewhere (sorry, I forget where) that you need to exercise over an hour a day if you are obese in order to actually lose weight. The thirty minutes to an hour a day doesn't cut it. So it is misleading to tell people to just take the stairs and park in the back of the parking lot, which is what a lot of health sites tell everyone.

Back when I was dieting and counting calories, I found that I was getting 1500-1700...nowhere near the 2,000 mark that all of the food packages say. So if I was eating 1500-1700 calories on average, why am I still overweight? I'm not a gainer, so I am probably still eating around the same amount of calories/day. My clothes still fit me from last year. I think something is missing in the equation and that all of these health experts are making incorrect assumptions.
 

EMH1701

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maybe the question should be why is it that when someone uses the word gross some automatically associate it with fat people. they might have some deep seeded prejudices of their own because they are agreeing with the portion of society that would automatically make that association. it does seem like a self hating reaction to me. sounds like someone familiar with the perspective of the closet and someone who thinks they are fat and look gross to me.
You make an interesting point. I think American culture, at least, has been so saturated with negativity towards fat people that most have no other reference when the word is used in a sentence, and will automatically assume such, even when there is no hostility intended. I don't know about other countries, but anti-fat propaganda is very prevalent in America. It is very much a cultural problem and one that we should work to change. I would love to see America embrace more of a HAES approach. Eat healthy, exercise, but quit focusing on weight and physical appearance so much. We are a country apparently obsessed with physical appearance, if you look at our advertising. Eating right and exercising should make everyone's health numbers better, and if it doesn't, then there are other issues besides food and exercise in those numbers.
 

melinda333

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Not using the word gross would have been wiser and kinder, in my opinion. Because people would think the negative meaning, even if just a passing thought...I would rather avoid that if it was my writing, it just reminded me that some people think I'm gross. English is my second language and both meanings crossed my mind when reading it.

I'm vegetarian and stand on my feet all day due to my work, and I'm still fat. :eek: Maybe people should just stop assuming why people are fat. It shouldn't matter for "acceptance" reasons.
 

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