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The "Friend Zone"

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KittyKitten

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Being "nice" never works.

Well nice is great, but OVERLY NICE, is such a turn off. Being syrupy sweet is just as a big of a turn off as being overly aggressive. It gets to the point of creepiness, like Tau said. Too much of anything isn't good. I can speak for myself and many women and say that we tend to like men who are nice with AN EDGE, not necessarily a 'badboy', but a sweet man that is a little rough around the edges. I like to feel safe and loved. A man with the perfect balance of strength and tenderness. That gets my engine running. An overly sweet, spineless nice guy is not for me. It is no wonder many of these types of guys end up in the friend zone category. And then complain that women want the 'thugs' and 'badboys'. Uh no, we want confidence and a backbone.

When I was younger, a friends with benefits arrangement sounded fine, but once I became older, I yearn to spend the rest of my life with someone. Sex is extremely easy to find for a woman, but a lasting love is the hardest of all. Too many men of this generation aren't even trying anymore; they don't want to put any effort into a relationship, let alone marriage. Haha, marriage! And much of it comes down to fear and/or the belief that most women aren't for shit, even if the woman treats him with love and respect. Sad to say. It's not easy in this dating world, and as I have become older, I have lost my optimism for the world. I still have hope, but not optimism.
 

penguin

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There's a huge difference between being nice and being "nice." The latter is what you do just to get something you think you deserve from someone else. Nice Guys (TM) subscribe to that version.
 

bigmac

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Attraction is either present or its not. If its not there hanging around being "nice" is a waste of time if what you're seeking is romance -- move on.

The other side of the coin -- if there is mutual attraction don't squander it -- take the relationship to a higher level.

At least for me this is was a fairly quick process (I proposed to my wife on our third date). Whether or not there's mutual attraction should be fairly obvious fairly quickly.
 

penguin

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It's not about whether there's attraction there or not, it's about people pretending to be friends in order to get them some, and feeling they deserve more no matter how the other person feels.
 

bigmac

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It's not about whether there's attraction there or not, it's about people pretending to be friends in order to get them some, and feeling they deserve more no matter how the other person feels.
The issues are related. Guys who try to get girls to give it up by being "nice" are pursuing an ineffective (and rather pathetic) strategy. They are trying to force attraction where none exists. Far better if they just move on and try to find person with who there is a mutual attraction. These "nice" guys don't seem to realize that there are plenty of fish out there.

Confession time -- I used to be one of those "nice" guys. As a strategy for getting laid it doesn't work for shit. I got lots more play once I stopped being "nice".
 

Jon Blaze

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(Just me musing while thinking about the topic)

Being willing to have a relationship with any of of your friends is not the same thing as intentionally having them there for that purpose or looking for it often. I think some forget there is a middle. Being interested or not and pursuit are two very different things.
 

Lamia

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When I was in high school I had 3 guy friends and we all hung out in a group of 6 3 girls and 3 guys. None of them had any interest in us girls. All 3 are now gay. I was used to being friends with guys who showed no interest in me, but I had assumed it was because I wasn't desirable.
When I went to college and started hanging out with guys who were straight and interested in me I didn't pick up on the signals and therefore didn't acknowledge their feelings. Years later I would think about those interactions and with hindsight go...."ohhhhhh that's what he meant". :doh:
I have no guy friends now just my boyfriend who is my best friend. :)
 

CarlaSixx

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When I went to college and started hanging out with guys who were straight and interested in me I didn't pick up on the signals and therefore didn't acknowledge their feelings. Years later I would think about those interactions and with hindsight go...."ohhhhhh that's what he meant". :doh:
This is a bit of what I have been going through lately. My gay friends are pointing out guys that hit on me and stuff. I'm totally oblivious to it until I realise what they're talking about minutes or hours or even days later. And it's making sense to things that happened back in high school as well.

I'm used to "gay culture cues" of interest and my gay friends doing things for shits and giggles with me. Didn't know some of them could indicate actual interest in the straight world til everyone started telling me I was coming off as a bitch for blowing off every guy that came near me.
I just... didn't know! lol.
 

bigmac

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Well nice is great, but OVERLY NICE, is such a turn off. Being syrupy sweet is just as a big of a turn off as being overly aggressive. It gets to the point of creepiness, like Tau said. Too much of anything isn't good. I can speak for myself and many women and say that we tend to like men who are nice with AN EDGE, not necessarily a 'badboy', but a sweet man that is a little rough around the edges. I like to feel safe and loved. A man with the perfect balance of strength and tenderness. That gets my engine running. An overly sweet, spineless nice guy is not for me. It is no wonder many of these types of guys end up in the friend zone category. And then complain that women want the 'thugs' and 'badboys'. Uh no, we want confidence and a backbone.

When I was younger, a friends with benefits arrangement sounded fine, but once I became older, I yearn to spend the rest of my life with someone. Sex is extremely easy to find for a woman, but a lasting love is the hardest of all. Too many men of this generation aren't even trying anymore; they don't want to put any effort into a relationship, let alone marriage. Haha, marriage! And much of it comes down to fear and/or the belief that most women aren't for shit, even if the woman treats him with love and respect. Sad to say. It's not easy in this dating world, and as I have become older, I have lost my optimism for the world. I still have hope, but not optimism.
This post got me thinking -- it raises an interesting issue -- why are marriage minded // marriageable men are on the decline. I've come to the conclusion that unemployment / /under-employment // job insecurity play a major roll.

Its hard to have confidence in yourself and backbone when you're unemployed or liable to be so at any moment. Also, without decent secure jobs guys are in no position to even think about marriage. So its not at all surprising many guys are not interested in long-term relationships (or at least pretend so). Its a way to minimize the dissonance between the life they'd really like to live and the life that is possible in today's economy.

This generally bad situation is made even worse by the fact that many men are not longer in the labor force (in many communities a huge percentage of marriage age men are incarcerated or have records that make them basically unemployable). Yet another factor is the fact that the jobs that are available require traits that are more traditionally associated with women. And, women now out number men at college by a significant margin.

While we obviously need to work on the economy as a society -- at an individual level both guys and women are going to have to redefine their expectations of marriage as time doesn't stand still. The sad fact is that marriage in the new normal age means not expecting a nice house with picket fence (or even a decent condo).

Bottom line -- its damn hard to be marriage minded when you're not financially viable.
 

CarlaSixx

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I think you're right, Bigmac, as I have had male friends say the same thing.

Their girlfriends start pressuring them after a year of being together to one day get married and the guys freak out. Some of them are only at temp jobs, some only ever on welfare, and their girlfriends are the same. So the guys obviously don't see what could help by getting married.

My one friend has been with her boyfriend for 6 years and been pressuring him for marriage for at least 3. He's told her every single time that he isn't ready for marriage because he wants a stable income and housing situation before anything serious happens. She said she doesn't care, she just wants the commitment. Meanwhile, she wants the princess-sized wedding.

I'd say he's got a level head about this. She absolutely does not. But her vision is in the norm with females, it seems, and I just don't get it.

She's been pressuring him to have children and get married, and yet both of them have been living at home with their parents, separate cities, for a little over a year now. They have lived together in the past, but living in separate cities for a long time and yet trying to get pregnant and get married?! I tell her very often that she is deluded. She thinks it'll make things that he wants come faster. Seriously? Deluded!

She hasn't even been at her own job for 3 months yet, the probation period is 9 months, and her bf is now between jobs. But she's still pressuring for things.

This is so very common with women that it's frustrating. It even makes it hard to date because guys see this so often that it's come to the point that they expect all girls to think that way. So they do friend zone. And they do "fwbs" because they don't want that pressure to happen.
 

Shinobi_Hime-Sama

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I have been with my boyfriend for almost three years now, and the subject of marriage has come up between us. I don't push for it for a few reasons:

1) I have no job, no savings and a student loan hanging over my head

2) He lives 2 hours away from me

3) I can't contribute anything to a household with no money of my own

4) I'm not a golddigger and it bugs the hell out me that he pays for everything when we do get to see each other

Not every girlfriend starts tossing around the M word after a year, I think that's way to early to be asking for if you don't have some sort of stability of your own. I'll admit I was with my ex for eight years and there was a time that I was one of those girlfriends who was asking for the M word, but that was before I had anything of my own to my name. I had no job then either.
 

bigmac

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Conservatives are always pushing marriage as a cure for poverty citing statistics indicating that married couples experience lower levels of poverty. I'm becoming more and more sure they have cause and effect mixed up. Its looking like married couples are better off, not because they got married, but because they had the resources to get married in the first place.
 
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superodalisque

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of course it could be just chemistry that puts a guy i the friend zone and there is nothing he can do about it. from my perspective guys put themselves in the friend zone by being too afraid, distant or just out of touch with what's happening around them.

here are some of my suggestions for a guy:

1) never just hang out in the beginning. actually ask her out on a real date. tell her it's a date.

2) if you really can't feel comfy dating a woman because you have no money,
leave her alone and stop fawning over her.

3) don't hang around waiting for her to make the first moves. if you like her
let her know. if she's attracted to you she will respond, if not it as not
meant.

4) never go on group dates or out with a bunch of friends with her until you are sure she knows you are into her and dating her. group dates are confusing situations and you are setting her up to perhaps get attached to someone else before she can know you well enough. she can also get the idea that you're interested in someone else. i can't tell you how many times i've gone off a guy because some woman was hovering around trying to give the impression something was going on when it wasn't or telling me she has a big honking crush on him. too much drama. besides, group dating is really not something you should be doing when you're past 30 for sure.

5) make a real phone call and don't just text or chat. always texting or chatting is for fraidy cats or just friends. if you want to make real emotional connection and not have a woman misread your tone into the friend zone call her.

6) don't give her your number and have her call you. i know it's the modern world but women like to be pursued. they want to be wanted. she wont get confused if you ask for her number and then call her-- don't wait to long to do it either.

7) don't do any of the gaming bs. the only kind woman it will get you is a psycho. the one you really want will put you right into the friend zone because she recognize the emotional bs right away because she is smart. that is part of why you really want to date her right? ;)

8) be a man of your word. call when you say you are going to call. be there when you say you are going to be there. if you flake out she will never feel you are that interested in her and what chemistry there is will probably fizzle out. if a woman feels you aren't really interested--friend zone.

9) don't talk her out of it. don't tell her all of the reasons why you shouldn't be trying to date someone or have a relationship. either she'll think you just want someone to hang out with or you just want a fuck buddy. it's okay to say that if it's all you want, but if you want more don't try to convince her what a bad deal you are.

10) be straight and say "i don't want to be just your friend". nothing could be clearer or more to the point. ;)
 

Saoirse

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Women have a period of time when they are able to have children, clocks ticking! If a woman wants to be married and start popping out babies at a relatively young age then yes she's going to pressure her man into thinking about popping the question. I see nothing wrong with that.


Eta- if everyone waited till they were completely stable and financially good and blah blah blah, no one would be getting married!
 

superodalisque

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Women have a period of time when they are able to have children, clocks ticking! If a woman wants to be married and start popping out babies at a relatively young age then yes she's going to pressure her man into thinking about popping the question. I see nothing wrong with that.


Eta- if everyone waited till they were completely stable and financially good and blah blah blah, no one would be getting married!
i agree that women should not put their lives on hold. time is valuable. if things are really that rickety as far as finances and she wants a more serious relationship she should find somebody else. it's a big problem if you have to pressure someone. that means he really doesn't want to be in a serious relationship with you. take a hint. if he really wants a woman bad enough he'll figure out something. but usually the guy does nothing when he knows the woman will keep hanging around anyway. it's odd how some of the same guys can manage to afford other things they want. i don't think women should be worrying about stuff like that when they know where the door is.
 

bigmac

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... it's odd how some of the same guys can manage to afford other things they want. i don't think women should be worrying about stuff like that when they know where the door is.
Guy toys are dirt cheap when compared to the expenses associated with having a family. Family is why I'm always broke. This year we spent $16,000 on health insurance for our family of seven, another $1,700 for out of pocket healthcare expenses, $13,000 on child care, $4,800 on insurance for four cars, .... . Luckily the states of California and (ironically) Texas and Alabama have picked up most of the college and grad school expenses for our two oldest (total of roughly $200,000 so far -- thanks guys).

I sold my 1968 Oldsmobile 88 convertible and motorcycle for law school money thinking I'd buy nicer ones when I graduated. Silly me -- I'm driving a 13-year-old Volvo station wagon (the closest I get to motorcycles these days is when I walk by the Honda dealer on the way to court).
 
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