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Fascinita

Jeez, we're blessed!
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Yes, you should take a lesson from me on civility.
OK. Watch this:

"Haha." (see below :) )

That's not begging the question really, and that's not what happened.
You keep racking up logical fallacies. This one's called Burden of Proof.


Now, be civil.

I made my point as civilly as I could. Laughing as a response? Not so civil.

The reality of the situation was more like you using a straw man.
Do you actually know what a straw man is? I'd say you had a better shot at making your case using Composition (Playboy and The Library), or Red Herring (the Drano thingie)... But you appear to just clutch at the first straw, instead.

You can see this with the last analogy of the video games, where you then simplified it and made it drano.
I'd say the analogy stands, since your claim that one must read a story in order to be qualified to say anything about it is wrapped up in your claiming that I have to have firsthand experience of something in order to make up my mind to avoid it. Simply reading the Drano label should tell an average person not to eat the stuff. Likewise, simply glancing at the classifying tags or keywords for a story should be enough to let me make up my mind that it falls in a category of writing which has no appeal (artistic or otherwise) for me.

Pedantic belaboring of the "you must first experience art for yourself in order to earn the right to critique it" is an attempt to establish your writing de facto as "art."

By the way, here's another logical fallacy for you: False Dilemma, i.e., If you don't experience my writing, which I claim is "art," you're not qualified to say anything about it... Therefore my writing must be "art."
 

Fascinita

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Who cares? ... You think I care about your sarcastic quips? I do not.
Since you've blown my sarcasm way out of proportion--though your own sarcasm matches mine; and since you've focused almost exclusively on responding to my sarcasm, rather than to the points I've tried to make--actually kinda hiding behind your objections to my sarcastic quips, in avoidance of my points--I have to conclude that, yeah, you do care.

And I also see how you don't have a civil discussion, with give and take, since it appears that with you there is no "coming to an understanding" or even "agreeing to disagree."

What you have staged here is a demonstration, a protest maybe... but not a conversation.

And that strikes me as perfectly coherent with your initial argument, that because Dimensions is "largely a fetish" site (according to you), those of us who are not "into fetish" should step out of the way and let you have run of the place.

Or am I wrong about that?

Simply put, it's clear what you want, but you've failed to make a good, civil enough case for it--one that doesn't hinge on your "Dims is for fetishists" claim, which leaves an awful lot of people in the dust (how's THAT for civility?)--and have instead appeared content with raising Cain.
 

Vader7476

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You keep racking up logical fallacies. This one's called Burden of Proof.
How is that Burden of Proof at all? Burden of proof has to do with the famous, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." My statement didn't at all say that there's no proof involved and that's why I'm right. This is an entire stretch.




Now, be civil.

I made my point as civilly as I could. Laughing as a response? Not so civil.
Your sardonic tone was hardly civil and you know it. But yes, you're correct, that wasn't very civil of me.



Do you actually know what a straw man is? I'd say you had a better shot at making your case using Composition (Playboy and The Library), or Red Herring (the Drano thingie)... But you clutch at the first straw, instead.
I disagree. Red Herrings divert attention away, using another topic. Kind of like what a lot of this thread has been actually. Compositions are attributing the sequence's characteristics to the sequence. I don't think that applies at all to your statements there.

I'd say the analogy stands, since your claim that one must read a story in order to be qualified to say anything about it is wrapped up in your claiming that I have to have firsthand experience of something in order to make up my mind to avoid it. Simply reading the Drano label should tell an average person not to eat the stuff. Likewise, simply glancing at the classifying tags or keywords for a story should be enough to let me make up my mind that it falls in a category of writing which has no appeal (artistic or otherwise) for me.
That's why this is a strawman, you're simplifying the entire argument(And leaving out some things) to make it look silly. There is a difference in saying what you just said, which I agree with, to what I said originally. Now, to clarify, I was talking about openly criticising stories which weren't read. I think we'd both agree that if you didn't read...let's say, Wicked. Alright, so the book is Wicked. It's an off-shoot of the Wizard of Oz books, done years later by a different author to give an alternate view, the protagonist is the witch. Okay, so let's say you didn't read that book. Now, I'm fine with you not reading it because of a number of valid reasons. What I was saying originally was that it's not a fair criticism to say it's stupid, or not worth reading. As I tried to lay out with video games, just because I don't like racing games, doesn't mean those games aren't good.




By the way, here's another logical fallacy for you: False Dilemma, i.e., If you don't experience my writing, which I claim is "art," you're not qualified to say anything about it... Therefore my writing must be "art."
Kind of, usually there's another choice thrown in there that's ridiculous. But I never said anything like that. I'm not using the criticism route to be a round about way of proving my literature on here as art.
 

Vader7476

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Since you've blown my sarcasm way out of proportion--though your own sarcasm matches mine; and since you've focused almost exclusively on responding to my sarcasm, rather than to the points I've tried to make--actually kinda hiding behind your objections to my sarcastic quips, in avoidance of my points--I have to conclude that, yeah, you do care.
My sarcasm has only shown in a couple of my posts, and I regret doing it. How have I focused exclusively on your sarcasm? I've responded to you and your posts in their entireties, save for that one. Hiding? Please, you know that's not true as well.

And I also see how you don't have a civil discussion, with give and take, since it appears that with you there is no "coming to an understanding" or even "agreeing to disagree."
I'm more than happy to come to an understanding. That doesn't mean I'm just going to lay down my beliefs when I don't feel that way. I mean really though, where has anyone else tried to come to an understanding with me? Agreeing to disagree is fine, but that doesn't mean much in my eyes. That just means we don't agree, which is what we were at the start.

What you have staged here is a demonstration, a protest maybe... but not a conversation.
Hardly a protest. I really wanted to know a few thoughts of some of the posters in here.

And that strikes me as perfectly coherent with your initial argument, that because Dimensions is "largely a fetish" site (according to you), those of us who are not "into fetish" should step out of the way and let you have run of the place.
I never said you should let me have run of the place. My initial argument, well, there's a few of those about a few different topics. I never said, ever, that the non-fetish sides were unimportant, didn't matter, or should have no say. I do think that those that aren't into the fetish aspects of the site, or the adult aspects is what I think I originally was going for(The stories, the paysite, etc.) shouldn't be the only voices heard about them since that's not fair to us.


Simply put, it's clear what you want, but you've failed to make a good, civil enough case for it--one that doesn't hinge on your "Dims is for fetishists" claim, which leaves an awful lot of people in the dust (how's THAT for civility?)--and have instead appeared content with raising Cain.
I'd like to hear what you think I want. Otherwise I can't reply to this paragraph.
 

Vader7476

Divine Sith Lord
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Fascinita:

I would love to continue this way, where we are both trying to put together civil and thoughtful arguments. I hope that we can, and I look forward to it immensely. :)

I really am sorry I was sarcastic or blew you off, and apologize for what you thought was a mocking statement. There was no excuse, but I had a pretty crummy day today and yesterday, and ask for your forgiveness.

In any event(All my paragraphs started with the letter I!) I'll be retiring for the night, so no need to wait up for me to reply to what you're typing.

Best Wishes,

Vader
 

Fascinita

Jeez, we're blessed!
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I never said you should let me have run of the place. My initial argument, well, there's a few of those about a few different topics. I never said, ever, that the non-fetish sides were unimportant, didn't matter, or should have no say. I do think that those that aren't into the fetish aspects of the site, or the adult aspects is what I think I originally was going for(The stories, the paysite, etc.) shouldn't be the only voices heard about them since that's not fair to us.
So, you've never claimed that since this is "a porn site" (according to you), the rest of us (those not into your personal fetish) are second-class citizens?

I've been following your posts here, and when I put it all together, it sure does look like you're saying that "this is a porn site, and therefore the people who come here to use porn should have their needs catered to first."

Your argument has gone like this:

1) I should have the "freedom" to add as many details into my writing as I want--including details that make it clear that the protagonist is under 18. After all, "literature" is in the details.

2) The reason I should have that freedom is that this is a porn site, and anyone who has a moral objection to my desire for that "freedom" on grounds that this is a community concerned about the image it presents--a community that includes more than fetish--is deluded and should recognize that this is a porn site.

3) The "fact" that Dimensions is a porn site should entitle me to the freedom to write what I want because I, and not the second-rate citizens of Dimensions who can't be bothered to read the Library, am the true demographic that Dimensions aims to cater to.

You've never made those claims? Please see the trail of evidence below. Thanks.

It would be accurate to add, as well, that I saw not one of your posts in which you made any conciliatory gesture toward those who use primarily the "unimportant" (anything not deemed important by you) content at Dimensions, and that you've never come close to saying anything like "the people who aren't into the adult content here shouldn't be the only voices heard since that's not fair to us."

If you'd made it that democratic, this thread might not have worked out the way it has.

To limit stories to college and up takes away a huge genre of possible stories and ones that are already written. The diversity and possiblities are what keep a story entertaining. The Weight Gain is what brings the readers and writers here, but the stories that get the most reads and are the best received do everything well. The more you put boundaries on the literature, the more boring they can potentially become.

Plus, everyone's got that one person in High School you'd like to just see some just desserts to. Pun definitely intended. :p
...This is where the details are crucial....

So let's bring that idea back to the original. How does that possibly have anything to do with an esoteric idea such as an SAT score. Well, what if you want your character to be stressed, and like that he would be worried and that can help expand on an outburst about weight because everything is getting to him!

Oh no, I'm not doing well on the pre-exams and I need a good score, I'm getting so distraught! And of course he's paying less attention to his snacking. But, wait! He hasn't found a date yet for prom! Oh jeepers! Haha, you get the picture. :D
Your second point is nonsensical. This is a porn website.
Having porn websites advertised on here and having erotic pictures and literature make it one. Absolutely. Don't dilute yourself into thinking otherwise.

There's definitely a community, doesn't change the fact that it's a community on a porn website. The entire point is that EVERYONE on here likes and finds something sexy and many even prefer their partner to be larger than average. All about about sex, see?
I think you're getting a bit too caught up in the delusion. ...
If the most important part was about accepting size, it'd be open to all ages for comfort for those in that awkward time of their lives, to give people encouragement and a positive outlook. It can't do that to all ages because of the porn that's on the site. ...

There's no doubt there's more to the site than just sexual gratification, but that's the main draw of it and why the other areas were allowed to thrive. Think about search engines. Think about what drives people to look for sites. Porn is if not the number one reason, one of the main ones. Not size acceptance. This place was made to cater to that group. Other reasons might make you stay, and that's one of the reasons this site is the biggest, but why many find this place is the sexual aspect.
 

Fascinita

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I hope that we can, and I look forward to it immensely. :)
Well, my work here is done.

I'll be sure to speak up again the next time someone claims categorically that my voice should count less because I'm not part of the supposed main demographic catered to here.

I think you should take your problems up with Conrad. He's the only one who can do anything about it. And if what you want is a public discussion, be prepared to deal with disagreement in a democratic way.

This is a topic that raises flags for people everywhere, not just Dimensions. And maybe there should be no sanctuary for certain topics.

Personally, I have no qualms whatever about insisting that the onus for finding and winning an audience for writing is on the author. It's just a cold, hard fact that this is how publishing of any kind works.

So what you're left with is a lot of back and forth about whether Dims "should" be the place that offers absolutely no boundaries, so long as it's WG-related, or not. And that, again, leaves you just with Conrad to contend with, about the "no protagonist under 18" rule.

Any discussion outside of a discussion with Conrad is just public rallying or advertising for your cause. You know this. And, well, what are the chances? Some things leave almost no gray, no room for discussion.

You're fighting a losing battle, IMO. And it's one I can't wish you luck with.

But thanks for being conciliatory in your last post.
 

Vader7476

Divine Sith Lord
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So, you've never claimed that since this is "a porn site" (according to you), the rest of us (those not into your personal fetish) are second-class citizens?

I've been following your posts here, and when I put it all together, it sure does look like you're saying that "this is a porn site, and therefore the people who come here to use porn should have their needs catered to first."
I did claim that this was a porn site. I never claimed anyone was a "second class citizen" at all, and you know this well.

You can't follow all my posts here and cherry pick them to put them together to form one argument. That really is disingenuous. I spelt it right this time! It's so intellectually dishonest, and I KNOW you know that. You're too smart not to realize that.



Your argument has gone like this:

1) I should have the "freedom" to add as many details into my writing as I want--including details that make it clear that the protagonist is under 18. After all, "literature" is in the details.
Sort of. Why are you quoting freedom and literature? The stories on this site are literature(Specifically using it as the third common definition).

2) The reason I should have that freedom is that this is a porn site, and anyone who has a moral objection to my desire for that "freedom" on grounds that this is a community concerned about the image it presents--a community that includes more than fetish--is deluded and should recognize that this is a porn site.
This is incorrect. The quote you picked was in response to someone claiming this site was viewable at work. My statement rebuked that nonsense, saying that there is porn(It would have been better to use adult originally, but I do consider a lot of this site pornographic in nature) on here and no one should be looking at it at work. This was an entirely different tangent to argue.

3) The "fact" that Dimensions is a porn site should entitle me to the freedom to write what I want because I, and not the second-rate citizens of Dimensions who can't be bothered to read the Library, am the true demographic that Dimensions aims to cater to.
This is also incorrect. You're doing what you were originally doing when you first started posting, in that you're just fabricating. I'm asking you to stop. I never said anything about the minority members not having a say, and no where in those quotes is anything like that even touched upon. This place gets the most traffic by people that come here for masturbation. That's just a fact, and it always has been that way. Even back when it was a magazine. I openly admitted, multiple times, that this site had more than areas just for them.

You've never made those claims? Please see the trail of evidence below. Thanks.
Um, no, I didn't. And I think anyone that reads those quotes in context and how the argument shifted to several other arguments will see that quite easily.

It would be accurate to add, as well, that I saw not one of your posts in which you made any conciliatory gesture toward those who use primarily the "unimportant" (anything not deemed important by you) content at Dimensions, and that you've never come close to saying anything like "the people who aren't into the adult content here shouldn't be the only voices heard since that's not fair to us."

If you'd made it that democratic, this thread might not have worked out the way it has.
More words that you put in my mouth. Look, if you want to have an actual discussion, fine, but what purpose is there in just making things up?

I never made any conciliatory gesture because this isn't politics, and we're arguing facts. I think it's pointless, and I reiterate that neither did anyone else on your side, so to put that on me is extremely unfair, and you know it.

I actually said that quote first.

No, let's rehash the argument, since it wasn't propery had. No writers got a vote or say in the matter, and no readers did either. Only a few people in the lounge, who openly admit they don't read the stories, go to the story forum, or even like what is produced here. Yeah, real fair.
(Originally it was your side treating US like second class citizens) After all the pages in here, I feel even stronger about that statement.
 

Vader7476

Divine Sith Lord
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Well, my work here is done.

I'll be sure to speak up again the next time someone claims categorically that my voice should count less because I'm not part of the supposed main demographic catered to here.

I think you should take your problems up with Conrad. He's the only one who can do anything about it. And if what you want is a public discussion, be prepared to deal with disagreement in a democratic way.

This is a topic that raises flags for people everywhere, not just Dimensions. And maybe there should be no sanctuary for certain topics.

Personally, I have no qualms whatever about insisting that the onus for finding and winning an audience for writing is on the author. It's just a cold, hard fact that this is how publishing of any kind works.

So what you're left with is a lot of back and forth about whether Dims "should" be the place that offers absolutely no boundaries, so long as it's WG-related, or not. And that, again, leaves you just with Conrad to contend with, about the "no protagonist under 18" rule.

Any discussion outside of a discussion with Conrad is just public rallying or advertising for your cause. You know this. And, well, what are the chances? Some things leave almost no gray, no room for discussion.

You're fighting a losing battle, IMO. And it's one I can't wish you luck with.

But thanks for being conciliatory in your last post.
No one said that. You need to chill out and reread instead of jumping into an argument all heated. No one through this ENTIRE topic said that you shouldn't have a say. Nor do I believe you shouldn't have a say.

This was partly that kind of discussion, one where my opposition didn't bring particularly many facts to it. A lot more feelings about what's okay and what the site is for than logic and reason. The only good point was that it's Conrad's site, and what he says goes, which everyone knew from the onset.

What's funny about that, which I brought up a while ago, was that originally this site had things like that on it. For years and years. It wasn't until the 2005 revamp did that change, and now in 2009 it changed again. In all, hundreds of stories have been lost without warning to the authors or readers for what seems to be not much reason at all(Seriously, the one story mentioned teenage skateboarders. You don't find that a little strict?). If Conrad's mind has changed, and he doesn't want sanctuary for those types of stories, that's fine. I disagree with his reasoning and many of his own thoughts about this site for a variety of reasons. Plethora of reasons. Both! :p That's only one topic, there are many others. My biggest concern now is that if this is 18+ literature as a rule, let it be that. At the moment, I can't say curse words in stories(Not the worst of them) or go into explicit detail about sex, or even have a negative light on a fat protagonist. So it's this weird it has to be adult...but not. Basically everything's getting the R(or NC-17) rating when the content is PG-13.

I don't have qualms about the onus being on the writer either. That's how it should be and that's not what I had a problem with at all.

I'm not fighting a losing battle. The battle has been lost well before this topic was made. I never went into it thinking Conrad would change his mind, he won't. I wish he would listen to my reasoning, but he doesn't want that either. I tried that well before this topic was made also. At the moment, I'm trying to get clarification on his new rules, which he also doesn't want to do. For fear of loopholes, which I find to be silly on a forum where he can change the rules anytime he so wishes.

My ultimate dream for Dims would be to have it no holds barred, but that's never going to happen. There are two things that seperate Dims from other fat sites(Whom usually have a similar or higher member count last I checked). The one is the size acceptance aspect. The other sites don't do that as well, and Dims was first to it so naturally most came here for that. The second is the library. No other fat site on the entire net has as many stories and writers. I'm worried that the more stories taken off, the more rules imposed, etc. will obviously diminish the library here to nothingness. It's already started years ago. Lots of writers are on Deviant Art and places where they have their own page and post whatever they wish. Many of the writers on Dims have accounts there and post there first. I have stories I haven't posted here. I know this reasoning is a slippery slope(More fallacies!), so it's not particularly strong, but the evidence so far has supported that claim somewhat and I think you'd agree on that. There's lots more to say, and I said a lot more in the thread already. I can't imagine why you'd actually care to read more of my verbose offerings. Haha. ;)

And you're welcome for that last post. :D Told you I can be nice. :p
 

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