Who is and isn't worthy of a hospital bed/medical care.

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Sonic Purity

Jiggle Junkie
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Thank you for taking the time to type out such a response. I will try my best to respond.
Gladly! I’m very much enjoying this conversation: an opportunity to have a calm, rational, factual discussion, exploring different viewpoints.

I do believe in obesity myself, unlike Shotha -- there is no way someone can be, say, 600 pounds and healthy, right?
Right there on your first point, we run into a problem: what is the definition of healthy? Health is a continuum, not a binary, and different people (experts and non-experts) draw different demarcation lines for where their take on “healthy” ends and “unhealthy” starts.

I do not have a precise definition of “healthy” even for myself in my own mind—just vague generalizations. Like many people when i see people moving around playing or dancing or running, i tend to think “healthy”, and if they’re having trouble moving, i tend to think “unhealthy”. I believe these thoughts of mine are imprecise, biased, and ableist. This is its whole own long discussion which we can get into if you want. My example is mobility as a proxy for health, which is problematic in several ways at least, not the least of which being that there are so many other dimensions to existence.

There are quite a number of people 600+ pounds in our community who are happy (via self-reports). I’ve not had the opportunity to personally ask them if they believe they’re healthy (which would have to be by their definition). Orthodox medicine is as biased as i am, except in an opposing polarity, so they may claim that categorically it is not possible to weigh that much and be healthy. I stridently disagree. Common?: maybe not. Possible?: absolutely.

Why do other countries have so few fat people?
Differences in the specific nature of available foods. Cultural cuisine factors. What i’ve seen as a sweeping generalization is that countries/areas which adopt a 20th. century-style “western” diet and especially an American diet and even more so with actual American food being imported tend to have growth or even an explosion in what i call greater fatness and you may prefer to call obesity.

Much of the manufactured American food tends to be particularly unhealthy, which i know from direct personal experience in ways other than fatness. Effects in terms of people’s fatness are well documented. Hormones, processing—many things.

Culturally, many Americans subscribe to the “I’ll do whatever the hell I want!” philosophy, most definitely in terms of eating. Orthodox U.S. medicine tends to codependently (my opinion) abet this behavior: “Sure! Eat whatever you want and take these pills if you have any problems”. I learned the lesson long ago taught by many other cultures around the world: food is medicine, medicine is food. Whatever the body absorbs is both at the same time: food, liquids, air, pollutants, etc.

We’re all a wildly uncontrolled science experiment: living in a world bursting with natural and human-made chemicals used for manufacturing, food processing, packaging, and much more. I don’t even know what-all exactly happens between when a chicken is slaughtered and shows up in that nice package of ground chicken at my local market. Far too many variables to track, and no one’s tracking much of anything that i know of.

Research and science does happen, and sometimes i even have the saved articles filed away properly [where’s my dunce cap smiley?]. Samples of intriguing titles from some of the ones on paper:

All from Science News, early 2000s:

Gene variations police the storage of fat (vol. 159, 2 June 2001, p. 342)

Genetically Driven: Mutation shows up in binge eaters (vol. 163, 22 March 2003, p. 179)

Calcium may become a dieter’s best friend (discusses calcium channel opening, which some scientists claim is a factor with millimeter wave R.F., which is the science being argued behind the EMF exposure outrage, which gets hyperbolized and extrapolated to where people tear or burn down 5G towers. But that’s a separate topic)(vol. 157, 29 April 2000, p. 277)

Virus boosts fat in chickens and mice (vol. 158, 5 August 2000, p. 87)

Then there’s the Wall Street Journal of Tuesday 18 November 2014, section D starting on page 1: In the Gut: The Mix of Bacteria Can Affect Your Weight

I have seen people 500+ plus and they can barely walk, if at all. Their limbs are discolored and even basic tasks are an ordeal.

I recall one woman saying that washing her hair tired her out, as it was too much to keep her arms up to complete the task.
I’ve had the great honor of meeting and starting to get to know several people (mostly women, in my case) in or very, very near that category. It was in a party setting, where there were many opportunities to watch them walk, sit, stand, get up, sit down, and otherwise move around or not move around. One or two moved as easily as i do (and i’m pretty energetic)—most impressive. The majority moved more slowly and waddled, which would be expected, with all the weight they’re carrying which i’m not. Some had exposed legs, others did not. One or two used assistants to help them move, from what i could see more for guidance from objects they could not see around themselves than motive power (which they themselves provided). None of those with exposed legs showed discoloration which caught my notice, nor did i notice such things on their arms. Some of those wearing pants happen to be famous models in the fatlovesex community, so we can all see from their free photos that in general for most of them they lack obvious limb skin discoloration (and is discoloration necessarily a bad thing, depending on specifics? Sun tanning is skin discoloration after all).

Have i seen other large supersized people as you describe them?: absolutely yes. I know one personally, at acquaintance level. I’ve been over to her house with my housemate, the two of us occasionally helping her out. Her mobility is marginal, she’s in a lot of pain. She’s also a classic example of someone who is going to eat whatever she wants all the time dammit!, even when specifically told by her doctor(s) who know her and her medical history and situation don’t do that! There are basic, simple, easy, low-impact exercises she could do like sitting in her chair and flexing her feet forward and backward that would help, and she doesn’t even do those. Her body, her life, her choices, and i respect those, painful as it is to witness the visible external results. I can only hope that maybe deep inside she has some secret internal joy or pride or other positive experience that makes her choices worth it to her.

Beware sweeping generalizations: even if a majority of 500+ pound people exist as you describe them—and i am not sure they do—it may not be that much of a majority, e.g. 55% (a number i totally made up out of nothing as an illustrative example of my point).

One thing these guys say that I will agree with is -- or is hard to not believe -- is that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. I don't recall them saying what amount, exactly, but I am guessing that starts from over 200 pounds. It surely must wear on the joints.
Absolutely there is a standard range for which our bodies evolved, and without question physics tells us that additional mass on moving surfaces such as joints increases friction. But we’re dealing with biomechanics, not passive hunks of metal, plastic, etc. While i don’t have a grasp of the specifics, apparently bone grows and depletes throughout each human’s life. Apparently, slowly over time, bone structures can increase (size? density? I don’t know) to handle increased loading.

This gets back to We Don’t Yet Know the demarcation points, or if there even are rigid demarcation points. Some people’s genetics may allow their bodies to grow more bone, muscle, whatever else to support successfully and readily carrying more weight. Others may not.

I’m mostly writing about bone because joints get even more complicated, with synovial fluid and all that. The point is: they’re alive, they can change, and i’m not sure that we humans yet understand how that works, nor what the limits are. And, once again, most researchers doing any research in these areas are 100% human, with biases, likely biased against fat people. They may be intending to do the purest science they can, the way i believe you and i would. They may be unconsciously framing their findings into a world view which might miss other possibilities.

Another point: anyone can have mobility problems, for varying reasons. Slender and average-weight people can and do have debilitating joint problems.

Here and now, we may not have anything better than one’s own personal experience. Follow what there is of the science, but make personal choices based upon direct personal experience.
[continues in next post]
 

Sonic Purity

Jiggle Junkie
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
340
Location
Pasadena, California, U.S.A.
I wish I knew what "a lot of weight" was for those ancestors. How could they have been obese anyway? Wouldn't they have had to travel for food and go without often? I look at videos of the modern day isolated tribes and no one in their groups are obese.
It would be great to know the magnitude of weight. They were working with skeletal remains, so there wasn’t much to go on besides bone structure. Normally i’m an organized person, so it irks me that i can’t find this article, properly cite it, and ideally quote from it. It wasn’t long nor especially in-depth (as reported in Science News. The original source might have been more substantial).

Going without food we already know is directly related to modern fatness: the fatter amongst us evolved to be more famine-resistant. It could be that their bodies had the capacity to carry a lot of weight, and that they might have cycled from big and heavy (moving less) to less so (gathering/hunting for more food) and back. As social people, it is entirely possible that some individuals moved less and may have been fatter (or heavier from something other than fat—they couldn’t know why the bone structures were so much more substantial), with other more agile individuals amongst the group doing the foraging/hunting.

As a sweeping generalization extreme fatness seems like a clear evolutionary negative for individuals needing to survive mostly on their own: agility seems essential.

These guys claim that people/Americans have no clue about proper nutrition. One admits that diets don't work but seems to think he as the solution. IDK. I am trying to be as accurate as possible here because I only care about the truth.
That’s why i’m loving this conversation (as i mentioned): your ruthless pursuit of truth.
I agree with them that most Americans have little to no clue about proper nutrition, though that’s been changing for the better for decades, gradually. The science behind how we view nutrition has kept changing as well.

Glad to read that the one admits that diets don’t work, given how well-established that is for the majority of people and over the long term.

To be fair and honest, though, I really don't exercise. It's minimal at best -- going up and down the stairs maybe 2-4 times a day and to and from the car, living room and kitchen. LOL!
Remember: minimal is better than lesser, or zero. It’s another continuum. Give yourself props for the exercise and movement you do undertake.

Well-publicized research over the past decade has equated sitting to death. That became far too close to literally true for me. We know that throughout the course of human history until the past century or so or several, most people most of the time were outside, more likely standing, crouching, kneeling, and moving around rather than sitting, though some sitting too.

Our bodies evolved for those sorts of movements. I have read that the lymphatic system has no pump, in the way the heart is the pump of the circulatory system and the lungs are the pump of the respiratory system. Lymph gets circulated via our movement. Hence it’s no surprise that there’s a powerful correlation between lymphatic issues and ill health.

Obviously i could go on and on, and this is already very long. Let me leave this post with the following point. I have learned the hard way that listening to my own body is critical for my health. Pain is a signal, along with pleasure and other sensations. Paying attention to those signals moves me to a healthier place.

Experts, science, and knowledge matter (or can matter). Personal truth is often found within one’s self. I have found that for me it routinely conflicts with established facts.
 

Shotha

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May 16, 2011
Messages
1,234
Location
New Zealand
Thank you for taking the time to type out such a response. I will try my best to respond. I do believe in obesity myself, unlike Shotha -- there is no way someone can be, say, 600 pounds and healthy, right? Why do other countries have so few fat people?

I have seen people 500+ plus and they can barely walk, if at all. Their limbs are discolored and even basic tasks are an ordeal.

I recall one woman saying that washing her hair tired her out, as it was too much to keep her arms up to complete the task.

One thing these guys say that I will agree with is -- or is hard to not believe -- is that the human body isn't meant to carry so much excess weight or fat. I don't recall them saying what amount, exactly, but I am guessing that starts from over 200 pounds. It surely must wear on the joints.

I wish I knew what "a lot of weight" was for those ancestors. How could they have been obese anyway? Wouldn't they have had to travel for food and go without often? I look at videos of the modern day isolated tribes and no one in their groups are obese.

These guys claim that people/Americans have no clue about proper nutrition. One admits that diets don't work but seems to think he as the solution. IDK. I am trying to be as accurate as possible here because I only care about the truth.
When I say that I don't believe in obesity, I don't want to deny the effects that excess weight can have on the body. My doctor never describes me as obese but if something is due to my weight that he will say, "It's because of my weight." He does not find the word helpful, when ascribing a condition to the patient's weight and will use other words. I don't see why we can't just use the word fat and talk about varying degrees of fatness.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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When I say that I don't believe in obesity, I don't want to deny the effects that excess weight can have on the body. My doctor never describes me as obese but if something is due to my weight that he will say, "It's because of my weight." He does not find the word helpful, when ascribing a condition to the patient's weight and will use other words. I don't see why we can't just use the word fat and talk about varying degrees of fatness.

Is it perhaps because the word is considered to be dehumanizing?
 

Shotha

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Is it perhaps because the word is considered to be dehumanizing?
I think that the word overwhelms people. There are more supportive ways of telling people that they need to lose weight.

When I started gaining I set myself huge and overwhelming targets - like putting on 100 lb. I couldn't even put on 1 lb and keep it on, because 100 lb was just too much. My own objectives overwhelmed me. I realized this and started setting targets like putting on 4 lb this month, which is about the same as 1 lb a week. I achieved my goal of 100 lb in less than 2 years. I think that it is the same with anything. If your targets are too big, you're setting yourself up for failure. This is why I don't believe in obesity. I find that the word overwhelms people and I agree that it is a dehumanizing word. I think that if someone needs to lose a huge amount of weight, then the medical profession should talk about it in ways that empower the patient. The word "obese" creates panic and panicking people are not in control. Weight loss needs control. This is the main reason why I do not believe in obesity. I think that it is an unhelpful concept. It is arbitrarily defined. And it puts the blame on the patient. It comes from the Latin word "obesus", which means "someone who has over eaten". It doesn't take into account that people can be fat for other reasons than "overindulgence".

I view fat as an evolutionary issue. For mammals life without fat would be much harder than it is. For many of them survival would be impossible. The fat-thin spectrum is an important part of our diversity and the species with the greatest diversity are the ones with the best chance of surviving.

I'm not trying to sing some eulogy of fat here. I just believe that it's not a one-size-fits-all issue. "Demeaning" terminology has no place in medicine. I believe that doctors should speak more sympathetically to patients, who need to lose weight.

And what of those of us, who like being fat? How do we balance their physical health needs with their mental health needs? Some of us describe as experiencing body dysmorphia at lower weights.
 

north2alaska

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I think the argument of who deserves medical care can be made for any two people.

One of my grandparents was a lifelong smoker and worked as a telephone guy where he was breathing in asbestos for the majority of his life. He died of emphysema after the doctor recommended him to quit smoking and he refused. Surely according to these trainers, he should be denied a bed. After all, he caused his condition. The men in his family lived to their nineties, he died at 73.

My aunt died of sepsis. Her doctor refused for two months leading up to her death to take her concerns seriously as "she just needed to lose weight". Sepsis affects every weight bracket, not just obese people, although sepsis can be a higher risk to those with certain conditions, diabetes is listed as one. AFAIK she was pre-diabetic. So I would be curious to know if these trainers think that she deserved to not get medical care.

I am very fortunate to have found a doctor who can separate my weight from any health issues I may have. Instead of treating my insomnia as weight related, he approached it as a stress issue (it was) and helped me find the appropriate fix.

LOL sorry for the rant. I take this kind of talk seriously since it is very personal for me. I would've pursued a medical career had I not been talked out of it.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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I think the argument of who deserves medical care can be made for any two people.

One of my grandparents was a lifelong smoker and worked as a telephone guy where he was breathing in asbestos for the majority of his life. He died of emphysema after the doctor recommended him to quit smoking and he refused. Surely according to these trainers, he should be denied a bed. After all, he caused his condition. The men in his family lived to their nineties, he died at 73.

My aunt died of sepsis. Her doctor refused for two months leading up to her death to take her concerns seriously as "she just needed to lose weight". Sepsis affects every weight bracket, not just obese people, although sepsis can be a higher risk to those with certain conditions, diabetes is listed as one. AFAIK she was pre-diabetic. So I would be curious to know if these trainers think that she deserved to not get medical care.

I am very fortunate to have found a doctor who can separate my weight from any health issues I may have. Instead of treating my insomnia as weight related, he approached it as a stress issue (it was) and helped me find the appropriate fix.

LOL sorry for the rant. I take this kind of talk seriously since it is very personal for me. I would've pursued a medical career had I not been talked out of it.


I appreciate your intelligent comment. These guys probably would say that about people like your grandpa who smoked and then refused to quit. They seem to be convinced that people who cause their own health issues should be denied beds/medical care at least when someone who is sick through no fault of their own needs that bed. They would likely let the obese person die and give the bed to the "deserving" person instead if it came down to it and there was a shortage. I guess they think it's unfair that someone who works so hard and has self-discipline and does everything they can to stay healthy does not get the treatment they need through no fault of their own because an obese person, who "obviously" (my wording) does not take care of their health took the bed instead. It seems to be a moral outrage to them.

What I have typed is the way I interpreted their comments and, as I am sure we all know, sometimes interpretations are wrong.

The Swole guy posted another video recently that left him feeling salty. He is/was upset that fat people were asking for or demanding seating accommodation. I don't have the sanity points to watch any more of their stuff right now, so I skipped this video.
 
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north2alaska

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I appreciate your intelligent comment. These guys probably would say that about people like your grandpa who smoked and then refused to quit. They seem to be convinced that people who cause their own health issues should be denied beds/medical care at least when someone who is sick through no fault of their own needs that bed. They would likely let the obese person die and give the bed to the "deserving" person instead if it came down to it and there was a shortage. I guess they think it's unfair that someone who works so hard and has self-discipline and does everything they can to stay healthy does not get the treatment they need through no fault of their own because an obese person, who "obviously" (my wording) does not take care of their health took the bed instead. It seems to be a moral outrage to them.

What I have typed is the way I interpreted their comments and, as I am sure we all know, sometimes interpretations are wrong.

The Swole guy posted another video recently that left him feeling salty. He is/was upset that fat people were asking for or demanding seating accommodation. I don't have the sanity points to watch any more of their stuff right now, so I skipped this video.
Mentalities like theirs ("I did everything right, so why am I sick?", etc..) always make me curious. Life was never promised to be fair or easy, even if you maintain a "perfect" body and health. Life simply isn't fair. I dont believe one person is any less or any more deserving because of a choice they made/didn't make. Because at the end of the day, no matter what choices you made, everyone still dies.

I'd rather live my life making memories, making a difference and enjoying my time than grumbling about how unfair life can be.

(Although, I'd be curious to see how he views people who have to be hospitalized for anorexia - after all, they are "choosing" to be unhealthy, no? Maybe I'll have to suffer through his video to pose that question. I'm curious to see how far his ideas go)

The Swole guy sounds like a channel I will gladly skip. I ain't got time for watching salty people on the internet. I'll maintain some belief that he's a nice guy, just because everyone deserves that.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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Mentalities like theirs ("I did everything right, so why am I sick?", etc..) always make me curious. Life was never promised to be fair or easy, even if you maintain a "perfect" body and health. Life simply isn't fair. I dont believe one person is any less or any more deserving because of a choice they made/didn't make. Because at the end of the day, no matter what choices you made, everyone still dies.

I'd rather live my life making memories, making a difference and enjoying my time than grumbling about how unfair life can be.

(Although, I'd be curious to see how he views people who have to be hospitalized for anorexia - after all, they are "choosing" to be unhealthy, no? Maybe I'll have to suffer through his video to pose that question. I'm curious to see how far his ideas go)

The Swole guy sounds like a channel I will gladly skip. I ain't got time for watching salty people on the internet. I'll maintain some belief that he's a nice guy, just because everyone deserves that.

They believe everyone should do their absolute best to be as healthy as possible. Most recent video from Swole I saw -- but could not bare to watch -- was about fat people wanting seating accommodation.
 

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