Trigger warning: Fat acceptance movement partially blamed for death of 16-year-old "morbidly obese" young man.

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FatBarbieDoll

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I'm not sure if Mr. Roberts really, truly knows what fat acceptance is or he's correct about it. My understanding is that fat acceptance means that fat people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of how we got fat or why we are fat. We deserve equal access to opportunities in society, to be treated like human beings.

I could be wrong, of course, and Mr. Roberts not, but I am skeptical the message of fat acceptance is that it's okay to be obese and unhealthy, to eat whatever you want, whenever you want and not exercise. He seemed to also get irritated when the use of the word "slay" is used in reference to fat people, I am guessing in regards to clothing and hairstyle and maybe even general physical appearance.

What say you?
 

Sonic Purity

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I'm not sure if Mr. Roberts really, truly knows what fat acceptance is or he's correct about it.
He is an ignorant narrow-minded asshole (at least in this particular video). I’m not going to waste my nor your time going through all his areas of error—there are too many. In my opinion he’s the one spewing out garbage far too fast.

My understanding is that fat acceptance means that fat people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of how we got fat or why we are fat. We deserve equal access to opportunities in society, to be treated like human beings.
^ 100% this.

I could be wrong, of course, and Mr. Roberts not, but I am skeptical the message of fat acceptance is that it's okay to be obese and unhealthy, to eat whatever you want, whenever you want and not exercise. He seemed to also get irritated when the use of the word "slay" is used in reference to fat people, I am guessing in regards to clothing and hairstyle and maybe even general physical appearance.

What say you?
He’s conflating fat acceptance and fat promotion, esp. gaining/feedism.

He’s not this boy’s doctor, and almost certainly knows nothing about the his medical history. As he was spewing he made it clear that he believes people are fat because they “over”eat—period. He shows no comprehension of PCOS, hypothyroidism, lipodema, lymphoma, intestinal microbiome specifics, or any other medical/genetic/environmental factors. He has No Business commenting on this young person’s death.

Like political parties and other human endeavors involving a wide variety of people, the realm(s) of intentional fat gain/feedism is a big tent: widely disparate behaviors, beliefs, opinions, goals, desires. Not everyone within the community agrees with each other, much less those outside it.

As someone who innately and forever has been profoundly attracted to/aroused by fat women who are at a minimum contentedly at peace being fat if not enjoying or loving being fat, and even more drawn to women so in love/lust with their own fat bodies that they of their own volition choose to get fatter, and at the same time personally informed on many heath/nutrition/lifestyle topics of necessity for my own survival and thriving, for many years i’ve forced myself to keep a ruthlessly open mind to all evidence which comes my way regarding human fatness and health or un-health. My relation to feedism and especially that term will derail this conversation and distract from your points, so let’s not go there in this message. For current purposes, i have been for many years and remain a member of the feedist portion of the online fatlovesex world. When someone from the community dies, i cannot look away: i need to know why, if that information is public. I need to know for personal responsibility: finding truth regarding fatness (esp. more extreme fatness) and health/longevity and owning whatever that truth/those truths are i consider essential to being in this community with integrity and honesty.

In the same way my fat love/lust may blind me to some negative outcomes—despite my best efforts at honest, ruthless clarity—Mr. Roberts’s fat hate blinds him. You pointed this out yourself with his disparaging inferences of speaking the word “slay”. He finds zero value in human fatness because his mind is closed to the concept: it is wholly outside his world view.

What jumped out at me was his offhand dismissive comment about how some women might find/have found Andre Guest attractive as a fat young man. How is appearance relevant to this? How is a person’s assumed/guessed/perceived attractiveness to others relevant to this? Most of all: “women”? What about other people of other or no gender who might find/have found Andre Guest physically attractive thanks to his generous softness? Oh that’s right—Mr. Roberts lives in a black and white cut-and-dried Yes/No world of stark binaries, so his mind has no space for wider concepts, or being open. I almost pity him. But, he seems pretty happy in his ignorance.

While i continue to applaud your pursuit of truth, i’m wondering how it is that you’re drawn to these especially abusive, minimally-informed videos. I do not question his fitness knowledge—i would be out of my range attempting to do so. He is out of his range discussing the fatosphere, and fat people, no matter whether they identify with the fatosphere or not.

Have you been spending time on/with NAAFA? (I don’t remember.) Their web presence is seriously messed up, with a lot of older no-longer-updated sites still up and failing to redirect to their current site. Be sure to go to this specific URL for the current site:


Their whole thing (as you may already know) is fat acceptance and health, not fat promotion/encouragement/adding more fat. The Newsletters are a great (free) resource, including back issues. Every issue ends with a Media and Research Roundup, most often containing links to the latest medical research (or abstracts) related to fatness or issues often faced by fat people. (There are also opinion/life experience pieces, and it’s obvious which are which.) If you’re not already reading those, i recommend seeking out those as vastly more informed information on human fatness than Mr. Roberts’s or my or anyone’s biased opinions.

Possibly repeating myself, if you truly want to get into anti-fat health information from an informed perspective, go to the Life Extension Foundation (LEF), ignore the supplements they’re selling (at least for now. They’ve done great things for me), and read some of their articles about research findings. Science & Research direct link. They’re absolutely anti-fat (“unsightly” is their favorite toss-off word) and believe that “excess” body fat is a medical problem. Unlike Mr. Roberts they back everything up with hard science and cited research, and present the information in minimally-abusive ways.

If you want to be informed via reason and science from a source opposed to human fatness, try LEF. If you prefer emotional shaming flagellation from uninformed bigots, continue to seek out videos like this one from Mr. Roberts. I won’t judge.

As always, it’s a pleasure to interact with you.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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Thank you for yet another detailed response. Do you really think he is a bigot, though?


I have noticed him saying some things of compassion, such as that, yes, fat people deserve to be treated with respect and have worth. A bigot would not say this, would they? Can he feel hatred towards fat people and also compassion at the same time?

IDK...he seems to have a heart and, even if he's wrong, maybe is just so passionate about heath and cares about people's health so much that he becomes outraged by stuff like this. Could this just be good intentions not said it the kindest of ways?

Also, you think he is being abusive. Why?

I am drawn to videos like this because I care about the truth and try to see both sides of an argument. In a similar vein, I am an atheist, but also watch pro-Christian propaganda. I am rabidly pro-abortion but have watched many pro-life videos...and so on and so forth. I don't want to lie to myself and believe in false things.

In regards to fat people again, there is a big (no pun intended) debate on whether or not we are owed accommodation, such as in the form of airplane seats that fit. I am mixed on this because I do believe it's usually a choice to be fat, so I ask myself if someone is deserving of accommodation for a, for lack of better wording, predicament they caused themselves or if it's their responsibly to fit into the society around them.

I don't know if it's compassionless to deny fat people accommodation or if fat people are being self-entitled to demand it. Medical care is different, however, because I don't think we ought to just let people die if they cannot afford treatment and caused their own illnesses -- I am only referring to accommodation here.


Other people will say it's oppression to not accommodate fat people, but the opposition will claim fat people are being self-entitled, playing the victim and a lack of seating, for example, into which they can fit is a consequence of their obesity, of their poor choices.

These are just thoughts running through my mind sometimes, even though I am not so large I cannot fit into things.



"What jumped out at me was his offhand dismissive comment about how some women might find/have found Andre Guest attractive as a fat young man. How is appearance relevant to this? How is a person’s assumed/guessed/perceived attractiveness to others relevant to this?"

Maybe he said that out of kindness or to pander to the FA crowd for some reason. He -- and the other guy I referred to in the previous post -- both have admitted that some people find fat people/women to be attractive. They might be saying this in a begrudging manner or because they claim to value the truth and wanted to acknowledge this fact, as if they are trying to be fair and non-biased.

I'll check out the NAAFA link.




I have imagined there being an information leak that reveals one or both of these dudes are actually secretly attracted to fat women and find it to be kinda funny.
 
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Sonic Purity

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Thank you for yet another detailed response. Do you really think he is a bigot, though?
Absolutely. At least by this definition from the New Oxford American Dictionary as bundled with my version of macOS:
“a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions”

He made it crystal clear in that video that anyone in any way neutral or positive towards fatness was Wrong and needed to Stop, because he said so.

I have noticed him saying some things of compassion, such as that, yes, fat people deserve to be treated with respect and have worth. A bigot would not say this, would they? Can he feel hatred towards fat people and also compassion at the same time?

IDK...he seems to have a heart and, even if he's wrong, maybe is just so passionate about heath and cares about people's health so much that he becomes outraged by stuff like this. Could this just be good intentions not said it the kindest of ways?

Also, you think he is being abusive. Why?

I am drawn to videos like this because I care about the truth and try to see both sides of an argument. In a similar vein, I am an atheist, but also watch pro-Christian propaganda. I am rabidly pro-abortion but have watched many pro-life videos...and so on and so forth. I don't want to lie to myself and believe in false things.
Both sides? There are often more than 2 sides. Failure to acknowledge/understand this i believe is a major reason the U.S. is as divided politically as it is. I too am a non-theist and extremely pro-choice. I strive to keep an open mind and understand how others who think/believe differently than me have arrived at their conclusions. We could go on some other interesting paths related to these topics, such as my preference for interacting directly in-person with real-world religious believers one-on-one vs. watching videos.

I do believe that he is passionate about his relatively narrow conception of health, and truly does want to Save fat people so they can fit his world view of “being healthy” by no longer being fat. Since you’ve investigated Christian information, likely you’ve encountered religious leaders with a strong mission, whom some might term fanatics, given the all-encompassing power of their belief(s). Mr. Roberts seems like a fanatic for (his version of) health and fitness. The word “fanatic” need not be pejorative, though many fanatics cease doing what you’re doing ruthlessly truth-seeking and develop blind spots to anything which might contradict their world view.

He’s being abusive because he’s telling people such as myself and anyone else who believes that being fat can be any one or more of healthy, health-neutral, attractive, sensual, erotic, and/or positive in any way is not only Totally Wrong but vile and less than human—unless we line up behind him and follow His Way. He’s not trying to reason with us: he’s straight-out guns-blazing personally attacking us. We know that appeals to emotion sway a majority of people: advertisers, politicians, and others do this all the time. It famously won Lyndon Johnson the U.S. Presidency in the 1960s with one very well-done appeal-to-emotion TV ad, blowing away the Goldwater team’s logic and rationality.

He can absolutely feel hatred towards fat people who refuse to get in line and follow His Program and be compassionate towards these same people or other fat people who “come around to reason” and follow him. From what I saw he’s very much My Way or the Highway: you’re either With Me or Against Me. Black and white thinking again.

In regards to fat people again, there is a big (no pun intended) debate on whether or not we are owed accommodation, such as in the form of airplane seats that fit. I am mixed on this because I do believe it's usually a choice to be fat, so I ask myself if someone is deserving of accommodation for a, for lack of better wording, predicament they caused themselves or if it's their responsibly to fit into the society around them.

I don't know if it's compassionless to deny fat people accommodation or if fat people are being self-entitled to demand it. Medical care is different, however, because I don't think we ought to just let people die if they cannot afford treatment and caused their own illnesses -- I am only referring to accommodation here.


Other people will say it's oppression to not accommodate fat people, but the opposition will claim fat people are being self-entitled, playing the victim and a lack of seating, for example, into which they can fit is a consequence of their obesity, of their poor choices.

These are just thoughts running through my mind sometimes, even though I am not so large I cannot fit into things.
We may have to agree to disagree on “it's usually a choice to be fat”. Sometimes, for some people, it can be a choice: there are people on this site and others who did not used to be fat, really wanted to be fat at a deep level and usually for an extended period of time, then found a way to make it so. For other people—and from my years of paying close attention, but with no hard statistics to back up this claim, i believe a vast majority of people—fatness is NOT a choice. You shouldn’t have to look hard around here on Dimensions to find posts from people who’re fat against their will or personal choice, choosing to be in a fat-positive online community, so they can be treated with the respect and dignity and friendship and love that we all deserve. You’ll likely find more through NAAFA. You’ll find hardly any (at least openly admitting it) on the more feedism-oriented sites like Feabie and Fantasy Feeder.

The woman i believe i mentioned a few posts back who needed a fecal microbiotic transplant to cure her c. diffcle (i may have that term wrong) infection who had never ever been fat in her life and blew up with fat after receiving the transplant from her fat daughter never chose to be fat, did not want to remain fat, had not changed her diet/lifestyle at all and yet gained a lot of weight as body fat. At that point under medical supervision it was reported that she assuredly did change her diet and lifestyle to shed the fat, and it wasn’t working. As with many things in the general media, there was no follow-up after the initial report, so i have no idea of the long-term outcome.

The woman living in this house who for a number of years now has been my housemate/ex and was formerly my True Love (living together like a marriage but not married) has been fat her entire life. She never chose being fat—it happened to her! Her mother was fat and one cousin was fat, but her other 9 siblings were not. Nor was her father. Nor were most other relatives. Yet her body followed her mother’s very closely. How was that ever her choice?

Look around at all the people who post who’ve been fat since adolescence, or since childbirth, or since some other major life transition. When i look around like that, what i see is that the majority did not choose to be fat. Some may be able to choose the degree of fatness, others may not, or not by much.

Those modern electronic NAAFA Newsletters have links to PDF scans of historic paper-original NAAFA Newsletters from the 1970s and 1980s (they’ll get to the 1990s and beyond eventually). Check out some of those for real-world experiences of an earlier generation of fat people who did not choose to be that way and banded together with others like them and admirers of all sizes and kinds who loved them to work together for common decency and civil rights for fat people.

What about those of us who’d love to be healthily fat, but can’t? You’ll likely not read much of that here, but some other places like Fantasy Feeder you assuredly will.

My mother and her mother were in the low-end fat domed-belly range, with the father/husband in the household (my maternal grandfather) being mid-scale fat. My father was midrange fat most of his adult life after i was born. His brother was supersized. Their mother (my paternal grandmother) was a tall more or less Amazon with good enough looks in her youth to get into silent movies (but not starring in any). Apparently busty (doesn’t show up in some of the few photos i have from her youth, but she sure had big saggers as my grandmother (in her 60s and later)), when i knew her she was also belly-predominant lower-end fat. My grandfather on that side died long before i was born and when my father was only about 15 or so, so i don’t know about him.

So how is it with that family background that my brother and i came out as tending-tall thin rails? I’m still no thicker than the category of average build even at an age when a lot of peers have age-fattened, even with an overly-sedentary lifestyle with far too much sitting. I assuredly have had medical issues related to the excess sitting and lack of enough standing and moving, but fat hasn’t been a part of those.

If being fat is totally a choice for you, that’s awesome, and i hope you love whatever choice you make… or choices, if you change your mind over time. If this is true, you are very rare, and very fortunate.

[continues with a long ramble in the next post]
 

Sonic Purity

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I have imagined there being an information leak that reveals one or both of these dudes are actually secretly attracted to fat women and find it to be kinda funny.
Stranger things have happened. Even the abusiveness fits in, because i’ve read of some fat people who enjoy/get turned on by being fat-shamed, and this guy’s well-versed in that!


Since you’re interested in truth, i’ll share an embarrassing and sadly relevant part of my childhood, when i was 10/11 years old—something i have never shared before anywhere with anyone (other than my brother as you’ll read).

Beyond being still too young to be developing romantic interests, for reasons that would take at least 5 posts this length to explain, i’d remained stuck in an earlier social developmental stage: the one where boys and girls consider each other to be space aliens or some other species of creature. I know nothing about child development and maybe it’s different for different generations. All i know is that when i grew up this was a common belief system for 3rd. graders, but not 5th. graders as i was at the time being described.

My brother (younger, and my only sibling) and i slept in separate adjacent bedrooms. Often upon going to bed we’d still be awake, and wind up talking. Somehow—i completely do not remember how this got started—i fell into a pattern of gossipy chatter about certain people (read: girls) at school: mostly monologs, with my brother patiently listening (and falling asleep). I remember nearly nothing about these monologs, other than that they happened, and that i was obsessed about discussing these girls’ perceived fatness—in a negative way, because society had taught me that Fat Was Bad and… wait for it… Ugly! Everyone knew this—it was obvious and self-evident!

Apparently there was some kind of list ranking, details of which i do not recall. I obsessed upon one girl in particular, whom i’d heard with my own ears mention to a friend something self-deprecating about herself being fat or getting fat. My childish obsessive vitriol was especially focused on her: she was always #1 on the list and received the most verbiage.

This nonsense went on most of that school year. It was probably the changing of schools from elementary to intermediate the following year for 6th. grade that ended this nattering chatter.

Essential Context: None of these girls were fat. At all. They weren’t even to the level of plump.

#1, the largest, was just barely slightly softening and just barely starting to develop minimal womanly attributes—barely. Before, during, and after pre-adolescence entered her life, she happened to be tall, blonde, pretty, and (from a distance, as i always was with nearly everyone) nice. Again for reasons which would take another 4+ long messages to explain with proper context, my and my brother’s world view had no room for “ridiculous wastes of time” like love, romance, and all the other things the young adults singing and playing their instruments on the radio were assuring us were Big Mistakes (the lost love and heartbreak song genre). My adult mind and years of adult context allows me to explain that i quite fancied this girl, and had absolutely no mechanism to deal with this reality, other than the tortured, contorted, negative put-down way in which i did. Thankfully what i did was solely with my brother and inside my mind, not in any way i can remember acted out at school.


Doubling-down on oversharing, i’ll name-drop her (#1). I have no idea what happened in the life of Barbara Sweet after our shared 5th. grade experience. I suspect she went on to a good life: maybe as a scientist or researcher or something. Very occasional image searches (including tonight) bring up plenty of people with that name, none of them remotely close enough in appearance (even with aging factored in). My life went decently for awhile before exploding and crashing in several different ways at different times, leaving me in a decades-long post-apocalyptic aftermath that truly has me wondering why i’m still amongst the living and whether i should be.


So yes, it could be that one or both of these particular exercise gurus who so stridently rage against fatness and want to lead the fat amongst us to thinness may actually be deeply-closeted (by choice, ignorance, unawareness, or other factors) Fat Admirers. It may really zing their zeal to gather together (when there’s no pandemic) a gaggle of plushies with body parts wobbling and bouncing all over the place. Heck, people like me can’t help being driven wild by people fattening, so who’s to say these guys might not be turned on by people getting thinner before their eyes? Especially if they’re a material part of the process. It would be kinda funny… but i’m not holding my breath.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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Interesting. The part of your comment that stood out to me the most was when you talked about choosing the degree of fatness -- never even thought of that before. I am not 100% convinced it's a choice for most people -- I try to not be 100% convinced of anything so I can be open to the evidence or proof -- but still highly confident it is. I see it in my own life and that of others. Small sample size, yes, but there is nothing so unique about us that we are outliers in this regard. I see the choice in myself when I go to the store once a week and buy potato chips, ice cream, et cetera and do not exercise for even 15 minutes per day. I just don't want to eat healthy at this point in my life -- I don't want to give up the junk food or severely restrict it, so I don't. I see similar behaviors in one of my sisters. She announces via FB that she started a new diet, will commit "this time", "no excuses" or something along those lines and then posts new photos of cheat meals, but always ends up quitting. They say you have to retrain your brain and make a new relationship with food.

Exercise I may be open to if I find something I like -- I am going to be looking at recumbent bikes and hoping to go to a bike shop in the near future.

People often say that diets don't work but I ask myself if they just aren't doing them correctly and permanent weight loss could be achieved via a balance that people have not figured out yet. It seems so many dieters have an "all or nothing" mentality and maybe that is why diets fail -- or is one reason, at least.

From personal experience, I started my first diet at 13. One day, something just clicked in my brain and I started exercising and food journaling and calorie-counting. I had an "all or nothing" mentality to the point that junk food was very rarely, if ever, allowed and I'd get upset if I went on vacation with my family and the hotel in which we stayed didn't have a gym. I'd become legit worried I would not be able to exercise. 2-3 years later and I'd had enough of this routine, so I simply stopped doing it, which was a choice. I now weigh 300 pounds and that is up from about 280 a few years ago, which was around 260 even before that.



"I remember nearly nothing about these monologs, other than that they happened, and that i was obsessed about discussing these girls’ perceived fatness—in a negative way, because society had taught me that Fat Was Bad and… wait for it… Ugly! Everyone knew this—it was obvious and self-evident!"

I wonder how many, if any, men are out there in the world who are truly, genuinely attracted to large women and would love to form relationships with us, but are in the closet about these desires because of the fear of ridicule, mockery, being an outcast, et cetera.

There is this cruel practice called "hogging" and I wonder if, for some, it's just an excuse to indulge in their attraction to fat women because they are too cowardly to admit it to others or even themselves.

I referred to men in my comment because I am only attracted to and date men, so I am not sure I can talk about the other genders.


Okay, I have rambled enough now.
 

Sonic Purity

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The part of your comment that stood out to me the most was when you talked about choosing the degree of fatness -- never even thought of that before. […] I see the choice in myself when I go to the store once a week and buy potato chips, ice cream, et cetera and do not exercise for even 15 minutes per day. I just don't want to eat healthy at this point in my life -- I don't want to give up the junk food or severely restrict it, so I don't. I see similar behaviors in one of my sisters. She announces via FB that she started a new diet, will commit "this time", "no excuses" or something along those lines and then posts new photos of cheat meals, but always ends up quitting. They say you have to retrain your brain and make a new relationship with food.
So many points worth covering here; hope i get them all.
Myself i just finished probably too many semi-sweet chocolate morsels (feeling slightly sugar-rush queasy). Blew through a whole bag of Trader Joe’s olive oil potato chips yesterday or the day before. Of necessity i have a fair bit of organic foods, homemade rather than store-bought bread, and other reasonably healthful choices, but also a moderate amount of junk. I absolutely make choices, and eat differently at different times.

I make choices. You make choices. Your sister makes choices. We all make choices. But do we truly make them as freely as we believe, no matter how strong our minds and constitutions?

I keep circling back to the intestinal microbiome because knowledge of it relates very directly to my health/un-health, mine has been heavily “reset” during a near-death hospitalization a couple decades ago, and because there’s been an explosion of new research and knowledge in this realm over just the past decade. We know we have these bacteria and other things living (mostly) symbiotically within us. We know the total number of their cells well outnumber our own body cells—pretty impressive concept to contemplate. We know that we and they have co-evolved, and that if we did not have them within us doing what they do, we would die.

So here’s the thing: they’re their own independent living entities, with their own goals and needs. They are also not identical between us, and last i checked (not recently) there remains woefully insufficient knowledge regarding which ones are “normal”, which ones are more recent emigres (some possibly thriving more as a result of modern lifestyles, food processing, environmental contaminants, etc.), how and when exactly they get there in the first place, what causes them to remain stable or shift, and more unanswered questions.

Our food choices directly affect them. Many of them secrete chemicals which travel (perhaps via the vagus nerve or other pathways) to our brains, rewarding us via signaling our pleasure receptors when we make the “right” choices—right for them. Keep in mind: for us, the effects of differing foods may be minor. For many of them, it’s life and death. There may be some which will die if we fail to choose sugary, fatty foods, hence they pump out those pleasure signals when we make those choices so we feel the rewarding pleasure sensations, and deny those often-addictive pleasure signaling chemicals when we make choices which starve them.

We’re still in control, we’re still making the choices, but the deck is stacked. They are not neutral, because it’s their survival. Presumably they lack consciousness (at least any to which we can relate), so there’s no moral or ethical element for them: they’re doing what they evolved to do.

Retraining one’s brain may be apt in terms of retraining one’s brain to try and minimize or ignore these pleasure signals from the gut originating from other creatures living within us. People who by nature and constitution are more sensorial and drawn to sensual living and sensual things may have more difficulty, and may be less likely to even try: the reward of those pleasure chemicals leads to a greater quality of life for them than tasty food denial and/or exercise they find unpleasant. As a sweeping generalization from what i have read and occasionally experienced, many fat people who are that way from joyous eating tend to also be above-average in terms of sexual positivity and activity, as sex is also often highly sensual. (This makes the stereotype of the sexless fat person even more ridiculous than it is on its face.)

Society has historically said it’s personal weakness when individuals make eating/beverage choices against common sense and known knowledge in terms of health. From this more enlightened perspective with this new and developing knowledge, we now know it’s more nuanced and multifaceted. Many of us have claimed for years that it was victim-blaming to accuse fat people of being weak-willed and making poor dietary choices. The evidence now is stronger than ever. This does not mean that people shouldn’t try if there are actual health reasons apart from fatness for reducing their weight, and/or if it’s an important personal goal in terms of body image, etc. It means going in with open eyes and mind, realizing that powerful factors are at work beyond individual historic eating habits and so on.

Exercise I may be open to if I find something I like -- I am going to be looking at recumbent bikes and hoping to go to a bike shop in the near future.
You nailed the key point: exercise has to be something a person enjoys. I’ve always enjoyed walking, bicycling, sometimes (esp. earlier in life) running. All of those felt good and were fun (and the first 2 still do). Some people don’t like any of those but love swimming—and on and on and on. We can be grateful for the many choices in this time and place in which we live.

There are many exercises that experts tell me that people in my situation and time of life should be doing that so far i choose not to undertake: they may benefit me in the abstract, but the time consumption and displeasure outweighs the perceived benefits.

People often say that diets don't work but I ask myself if they just aren't doing them correctly and permanent weight loss could be achieved via a balance that people have not figured out yet. It seems so many dieters have an "all or nothing" mentality and maybe that is why diets fail -- or is one reason, at least.
Here’s my take from decades of reading (sometimes witnessing) the experience of others who deal with fatness related to eating: diets almost never work. Permanent lifestyle changes more often can.

Which is to write: doing something time-limited, even if that time is measured in years, is likely to lead to reversion to fatness once the diet ends. This is readily understandable: the body has been in famine mode during the diet. After the diet food is back (even if healthful and in “reasonable” quantities) and the body has no way of knowing when the next famine might be no matter what the brain tells it, so to be safe and ensure the person survives, it packs on as much fat as it can: fat rebound, and usually with a setpoint kick-up to a higher point-of-regulation weight.

From personal experience, I started my first diet at 13. One day, something just clicked in my brain and I started exercising and food journaling and calorie-counting. I had an "all or nothing" mentality to the point that junk food was very rarely, if ever, allowed and I'd get upset if I went on vacation with my family and the hotel in which we stayed didn't have a gym. I'd become legit worried I would not be able to exercise. 2-3 years later and I'd had enough of this routine, so I simply stopped doing it, which was a choice. I now weigh 300 pounds and that is up from about 280 a few years ago, which was around 260 even before that.
I’m curious and trying to better understand what it’s like (at least for you as one individual), as someone who’s not directly lived something like this. If you feel comfortable sharing (here or a private message as you prefer), do you recall what, if any specific thing or things, motivated you/your mind to click into that first diet? Then, when you write you’d “had enough of this routine”, what was that like? Tired of the work? Feeling like you were missing some form of pleasure or joy in your life? Something or things entirely different?

The following may be irrelevant, or even inappropriate. I find you to be an interesting person (through the limited context we have of these messages), and as often mentioned already, your ruthless pursuit of truth admirable and intriguing. I’m trying to wrap my mind around your intent and goals: what at this point in time has you so deeply investigating these topics? How do you truly feel about currently being fat and weighing 300 pounds?

[runs on into next post]
 

Sonic Purity

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Setpoint Theory In Practice: My Experience
Having read what you wrote above about your over-time gains reminded me of my very limited personal experience, which i will now share.

Most of my life through early adulthood my weight setpoint was “hard servoed” at 150 pounds, meaning that pretty much no matter what i did or did not eat and how much or little i exercised, my weight remained extremely close to that value. It took absolutely no effort on my part for this to happen.

In my 30s, depression and psychological issues eventually led to a span of intense body dysmorphia: with zero basis in reality, my mind reached the conclusion that i was fat. (This was a still a few years before i first discovered the fatosphere.) So i did a vague self-arranged dieting thing and dropped from my ever-stable 150 pounds down to about 145 pounds. I was light-headed and otherwise physically messed up.

Eventually in weeks or months (relative) psychological stability returned. I ceased sensing myself in this distorted way and reverted to my usual lifestyle habits. I found that my weight drifted up to right about 155 pounds for the first time in my life. It remained locked in there for many years thereafter: i’d experienced a setpoint kick!

I wonder how many, if any, men are out there in the world who are truly, genuinely attracted to large women and would love to form relationships with us, but are in the closet about these desires because of the fear of ridicule, mockery, being an outcast, et cetera.

There is this cruel practice called "hogging" and I wonder if, for some, it's just an excuse to indulge in their attraction to fat women because they are too cowardly to admit it to others or even themselves.
You may strike the “if any” from your first sentence above. If you wish to stir up a hornet’s nest (which might provide useful insight into prevalence), consider starting a new topic in an appropriate section here with a title along the lines of: Closeted FAs: How Common?

Stand back and watch the fireworks. (Some people might even accuse you of trolling, given that many have long known this to be common. Hope not but it could happen.) From all i’ve read over the years it’s nauseatingly common and a major complaint, esp. amongst BBW across the size range: men who dearly want them in private, hidden away in a bedroom or elsewhere, but do not want to be seen with them in public and/or let their family and/or co-workers know. It’s common and problematic enough that people like me who’ll happily be out in public/with family/etc. anywhere any time with women we love have to go to great lengths to prove ourselves legitimate and real.

I felt queasy the first time i read about hogging, and have not read about it much. Count on what you wonder about being correct in at least some cases. The ways in which people can be deeply hurtful and dehumanizing to others is truly depressing. We’re living through a period in history where an especially blatant example of this may finally be waking people up to take this pandemic opportunity to make overdue systemic societal changes.

Okay, I have rambled enough now.
Thank you for sharing everything you’ve shared. Every first-hand experience i read from someone living life in a body quite different from my own helps enlighten me and keep me grounded in our consensus reality.
 

Shotha

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I can't believe that people listen to Mr. Roberts. He has nothing constructive to say. Does he know any adjective of adverb other than "f**king"? He's ranting in this video. He's enraged. Scientific objectivity disappeared the moment he opened his mouth. By the end of the video, he's out of control.

Suppose just for a moment that being excessively fat kills. Why is he in such a temper about it? If fat kills, we are the people who should be angry about it. Not Mr. Roberts. He reminds me of the sort of buy who brags about not being a racist but is so f**cking angry and worried that his best friend is dating a black man. We would see through this and realize that only a racist would be angry about the colour of the skin of someone else's date. Mr. Roberts is doing the same thing with fat.

For me the most important thing about fat acceptance is according the same respect and dignity to everyone regardless of their size or shape and thus enabling them to accept themselves as they are. It's not about encouraging people to be fat. Some of us struggle all our lives to keep our weight down. We should not have to be ashamed of that.

Most people don't choose to be fat. Most of my fat friends hate being fat. I think that if Mr. Roberts were to run into someone like me, he would spontaneously combust. I'm one of the few, who have chosen to be fat, because I think that fat people are so beautiful.
 

Green Eyed Fairy

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I'm assuming Mr Roberts is thin and never had a problem with his weight. I'm so glad he found a throne to rest upon that didn't require true thought or work behind it.
 

JDavis

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I just listened to the book Health At Every Size on Audible. I really like the way in which it explains how anyone who does not believe in the set point theory is someone who does not believe in their own experience. In the USA ( and other countries as well) we do get gaslighted daily that the set point does not exist though so I understand why people have trouble accepting it. Also we get gaslighted that fat is less healthy than thin. Studies actually show thin is the least healthy but still that is not a choice.

This whole idea that if you are X type of person and Y type of people live longer than you, then you should spend your life trying to become a Y person is ridiculous. Men die younger than women and no one is telling them all to get sex changes for example.
 
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JDavis

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The set point also rises and falls with age. It does so much more dramatically with fat people than with thin people. I am currently in the falling phase of this set point movement and it is very odd. My increase was much more percentage wise than in this graph although I am in the 99.99% ile for size so not represented on the graph. I went from 180 to 325 from age 20 to 55.

This rise and fall adds some confusion to the theory for people.

I think that the reason we have an "obesity epidemic' in developed countries is that the average age has been increasing to around the number that the peak of fatness occurs. If you look at the average age by country you will see that the obesity epidemic correlates fairly well in countries with a high average in the late 40s.

The Boomers in those countries are all past that peak so maybe they will stop talking about the obesity epidemic so much.
 

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FatBarbieDoll

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I can't believe that people listen to Mr. Roberts. He has nothing constructive to say. Does he know any adjective of adverb other than "f**king"? He's ranting in this video. He's enraged. Scientific objectivity disappeared the moment he opened his mouth. By the end of the video, he's out of control.

Suppose just for a moment that being excessively fat kills. Why is he in such a temper about it? If fat kills, we are the people who should be angry about it. Not Mr. Roberts. He reminds me of the sort of buy who brags about not being a racist but is so f**cking angry and worried that his best friend is dating a black man. We would see through this and realize that only a racist would be angry about the colour of the skin of someone else's date. Mr. Roberts is doing the same thing with fat.

For me the most important thing about fat acceptance is according the same respect and dignity to everyone regardless of their size or shape and thus enabling them to accept themselves as they are. It's not about encouraging people to be fat. Some of us struggle all our lives to keep our weight down. We should not have to be ashamed of that.

Most people don't choose to be fat. Most of my fat friends hate being fat. I think that if Mr. Roberts were to run into someone like me, he would spontaneously combust. I'm one of the few, who have chosen to be fat, because I think that fat people are so beautiful.

I could be wrong but I believe one reason why he is angry is because, according to him, "obesity is bad for the economy."

If you ask him and/or others who support him, they may say he is just passionate about health and wants people to be as healthy as possible.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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I'm assuming Mr Roberts is thin and never had a problem with his weight. I'm so glad he found a throne to rest upon that didn't require true thought or work behind it.

He used to weigh 260 pounds, he said. Even if he is 100% correct about obesity being unhealthy, there may still be a component of hatred and/or bigotry in what he says.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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I just listened to the book Health At Every Size on Audible. I really like the way in which it explains how anyone who does not believe in the set point theory is someone who does not believe in their own experience. In the USA ( and other countries as well) we do get gaslighted daily that the set point does not exist though so I understand why people have trouble accepting it. Also we get gaslighted that fat is less healthy than thin. Studies actually show thin is the least healthy but still that is not a choice.

This whole idea that if you are X type of person and Y type of people live longer than you, then you should spend your life trying to become a Y person is ridiculous. Men die younger than women and no one is telling them all to get sex changes for example.
 

FatBarbieDoll

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I just listened to the book Health At Every Size on Audible. I really like the way in which it explains how anyone who does not believe in the set point theory is someone who does not believe in their own experience. In the USA ( and other countries as well) we do get gaslighted daily that the set point does not exist though so I understand why people have trouble accepting it. Also we get gaslighted that fat is less healthy than thin. Studies actually show thin is the least healthy but still that is not a choice.

This whole idea that if you are X type of person and Y type of people live longer than you, then you should spend your life trying to become a Y person is ridiculous. Men die younger than women and no one is telling them all to get sex changes for example.


"Also we get gaslighted that fat is less healthy than thin. Studies actually show thin is the least healthy but still that is not a choice."

My understanding is that those studies say thin is less healthy than fat but only to an extent. People in the obese category or who may be a bit overweight may be healthier than thin people but this surely does not apply to people my size (roughly 5'5" and 300 pounds) and bigger.
 

Shotha

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I could be wrong but I believe one reason why he is angry is because, according to him, "obesity is bad for the economy."

If you ask him and/or others who support him, they may say he is just passionate about health and wants people to be as healthy as possible.
I just prefer to hear the case for or against anything argued more scientifically, more objectively, more articulately and more calmly. I switch off to any message delivered the way Mr. Roberts delivers it. I think that listening to videos like his is bad for ones mental health. I think that he's out of control and I don't want him to make me out of control.
 

Sonic Purity

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He used to weigh 260 pounds, he said.
Some of the most intolerant, often toxic often irrational fat-haters are former fat people who have found their way to a different (usually smaller/lighter) body consistency/shape/etc. The thinking seems to be along the lines of “I did it, so why can’t everyone else?! Get with the program, people!

They often fail to take into account that people are very different, in ways far from well-understood (especially by science and logic) despite people’s honest best efforts. It’s the common human trap of failing or struggling with understanding those unlike ourselves, with different world views and experiences.

Some of the most hated people in this community (the fatosphere, not solely Dimensions) are those who were previously fat (often well-known fat models), changed to become average-slender, and—this is the key, crucial part—turned against this community individually and collectively as being toxic, awful, wrong, disgusting, subhuman. They were part of us, then moved away (which is fine) and threw us under the bus (not OK).
 

Sonic Purity

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I could be wrong but I believe one reason why he is angry is because, according to him, "obesity is bad for the economy."
(Struggling not to roll my eyes)
The economic argument that Fat People Are Destroying Our Economy! usually seems to go like this:

Fat = unhealthy
Unhealthy = higher health care costs
Higher health care costs = economic disaster

Each one of those lines is incorrect—even the third one when closely analyzed.

The first line has been covered and thoroughly debunked all over the fatosphere and the world in general; i’ll not cover it further here.

The second line is only true with a suboptimal health care system with distorted pricing and incentives. Somehow humanity survived for millennia prior to modern high-cost sick care um, sorry: health care systems. (I am writing from a U.S. perspective, focusing on the orthodox medical system as it is here.) It is only true of one assumes that a system along the lines of the existing orthodox U.S. system is the Only health care system. From vast personal experience, i vigorously dispute this assumption.

The reason the third line is incorrect relates to the second line: the mistaken assumption that there is Only One Way, One System, and that health care costs are immutable. While the for-profit pharmaceutical industry hates anyone knowing of alternatives to what they make, alternatives assuredly exist, and always have. The reason i’m still alive and able to write this message is due to a combination of both orthodox U.S. medicine and what gets called “alternative” medicine/healing modalities here. Both have been crucial; the latter generally more effective over the long term and nearly always with fewer side-effects.

This entire line of “reasoning” is so weak, it’s not even a house of cards: structures made of playing cards have more structural integrity than this argument.
 

JDavis

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"Also we get gaslighted that fat is less healthy than thin. Studies actually show thin is the least healthy but still that is not a choice."

My understanding is that those studies say thin is less healthy than fat but only to an extent. People in the obese category or who may be a bit overweight may be healthier than thin people but this surely does not apply to people my size (roughly 5'5" and 300 pounds) and bigger.
I can't remember for sure 100% off hand but I think if you divide people into 4 categories you get from least healthy to healthiest:
1. thinnest
2. fattest
3. "average"
4. overweight

Again, like I said, since size is not a choice it does not matter. There is no proof that a thinnest or fattest person who forces change temporarily over and over again (yo you dieting or yo yo gaining) is healthier. In fact, evidence points to the opposite.

It seems to be a hobby of the medical professions to group people into random groups of types (gay/straight, black/white, tall/short, American/Italian, rich/poor, male/female etc) and then compare longevity. They then draw random fairly useless conclusions from it.

I studied as a microbiologist at the graduate level for 5 years so I guess I lost a lot of respect for those types of statistical studies to begin with.
 
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