In the light of the discussion in another thread about what authors realize in writing stories, the below discussion about a story on another site seems relevant.
The discussion is on the CWWF forum from 2005 and is about to scroll off into oblivion. Four of the five parties involved are what I would consider as realistic authors whose work is included in the Dimensions library. Their names are masked here to focus on content:
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Party 1 (the author of two posted stories): I'm glad you liked (the earlier story name) by the way. People usually like that one a lot. It was kind of hard to write because the main character has a personality quite different than mine. Any suggestions on how to make this one, (current story name) better?
Party 2 (commenting on a posted story): This already excellent story would, in my belief, be much improved if the characters came to realize that, in addition to seeing inner beauty, large size and outward beauty are also compatible. Its how you dress, how you carry yourself, and the persona that you project that makes the difference. Coming to love some one with inner beauty "in spite of" their outer weight is not good enough in my book.
Party 1 (the author): How about loving someone for inner beauty and genuinely not caring what they look like on the outside? That way, you are not loving them "in spite" of anything, you really don't care what they look like?
I think ultimately this is better than loving them for being big, because if everyone did that, we'd have this same epidemic in the country of making women feel bad about their looks, except this time naturally thin women would feel awful. Its best if we, as a nation, can come together and try to forget about appearance mattering. Or, at best, we can say it matters so little, and inner beauty outweighs it (no pun intended) by a long shot.
Party 2 (original responder) Philosophically I see where you're coming from. But women have a need, perhaps more than men, to be seen as physically attractive.
There is even reason to believe that low self-esteem in obese women is more important than the obesity itself in causing so-called obesity related health problems. Here is a quote from a study at the University of California at Davis on point:
"Behavior change and self-acceptance trump dieting hands-down when it comes to achieving long-term health improvements in obese women, according to a two-year study by nutrition researchers at the University of California, Davis.
"The findings suggest that significant improvements in overall health can be made, regardless of weight loss, when women learn to recognize and follow internal hunger cues and begin feeling better about their size and shape. Results of the study will appear in the June issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association."
You can read the entire article at
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=25384
Its fine and good that a guy can look beyond an imperfection, but even nicer in the case of one's weight that it not be regarded as an imperfection to begin with! Size is simply in a different class than a zit, scar, or a gray hair!
Party #3 (an author from France): First I like you surname, it means Magic in my native tongue
Secondly, I do not know you and my opinion is based only from reading you messages.
I think that you are a woman ( a real one!!! ). I think that your opinions are very good. It is your opinion!
I respect you ideas and remarks because it is you and it is ok to tell what you think. As I told you are a real woman.
But please, could you sometime give me your opinion about this: "have you one time had the idea of making one person put on pounds to show him or her what it is to be fat".
-------
I had an idea one day. There is in France some TV Shows "we have exchanged our lives etc..."
I have an idea for a new TV show:
We may have to do a fat suit. A "second skin" adding 150 pounds on one thin person. This person will have to put on this second skin all a week on him or her to do all activities work etc and we will have a gig TV show to get the opinion of the person at the end of the week.
Good for respect no???
Take care
Party #2 (original responder): Your idea is a good one. This has actually been done by investigative reporters here in the United States. They usually go into a bar setting, retail store, restaurant etc using hidden cameras and microphones -- once in a fat suit, another time dressed 'normally.'
Invariably the "fat suit" person isn't treated as nicely. Few guys hit on her, clerks in the stores don't respond as quickly, service in the restaurant is poorer. This 'proves society's bias towards fat people.’
Or does it?
I think it shows what can happen to fat people - but doesn't have to if we don't play the game and accept it. I've not experienced this kind of rejection; I think its because I don't court it.
We deserve to be treated equally with others, fat or not, but too often we accept second class status as though we deserve it. This is wrong - and doesn't happen if we don't accept it.
I've been fat all my life but have always been a leader. I have never wanted for dates because I've befriended too many guys. I am not shy about talking to a store manager or asking for a restaurant owner's phone number. People get the message very quickly.
Groups and individuals I believe are discriminated against because they allow themselves to be. We as fat people will get respect when collectively we expect and demand it. Some of us are already there.
As for deliberately fattening someone up, it might be interesting but its not been my main thing. Still, if I ever cared about a guy smaller than me that could change.
Party #4 (A well known WG story writer) About your last sentence, I have a comment. You wrote, "Still, if I ever cared about a guy smaller than me that could change." I take it you're not attracted to slender men? After your essay on size prejudice wouldn't that then include you?
Party #2 (the original responder): You read too much into what is neither there or intended. I have a wonderful guy right now who happens to be bigger than me. I'm not in the market for anyone else of any size. Hopefully this will be the case for many years. But I recognize that tragedy could intervene and after that point who knows what might happen? That's all I was saying.
I think perhaps I need to clarify where I am coming from. I have seen lives ruined over weight issues. This includes those who have limited themselves because of a "less than" mentality over their size and those who have become ill due to diet-induced eating disorders.
One example: A classmate in high school, who had once been a close friend, died from the consequences of anorexia. She had once been slightly plump - but was hounded into dieting by her mom. She rejected the former friendship of myself and others because she didn't want to "slip back" into eating like us. She instead chose to pursue a popularity that never came her way. She went down to under 90 pounds but still saw herself as "fat."
Positive self image isn't the entire key to being both fat, healthy and happy. Exercise, avoiding certain foods, and including certain others are all part of the mix. But eliminating the stereotypical negative self image is part of the formula, which is why I prefer stories that reflect what can be instead of the dark side.
My guy is, from all I can tell, a hardwired FA, although he's never tried to get me to gain anything and is not the crusader that I am. He thinks both the groups I mentioned above aren't going to change so why bother. But he shares the FA opinion of the futility of diets and has dated other bigger girls much more than those of smaller size. I doubt if he would appreciate revenge stories either.
Why, given all the crap we have to put up with from the diet industry and elsewhere, should we be shooting our own? That's my dilemma. I don't mean to offend anyone as I try to answer that question.
We should be helping the wounded heal and getting the hidden FA's to come out of the closet and join the fray!
Party #4 (the well known WG story author) Hey (name deleted), your latest post has a lot of information and I'll try not to be too verbose or insensitive as I respond. Playing armchair psychologist you seem to a realist which can account for your lack of enthusiasm towards many of the stories posted here.
You have to remember the audience that these stories are written for. As an author myself, I always consider what my readers enjoy and commit myself to trying to please my audience. I'm aware that people who don't enjoy this type of fiction will have a hard time accepting my stories, but that's a given. I'm not going to please everyone. I was dating one young lady who dropped me like a bad habit as soon as she read a few of my stories. However, I have other female friends who think my stories are excellent and that I realistically portray the feminine gender.
About weight issue's;
I have never been a fan of the diet industry. Not because I'm attracted to full figure females, but rather because the diet industry is actually a business that preys upon a person's vanity and (lack) of self esteem. I don't cotton to people like Richard Simmons who tells his audience that you need to have a certain appearance to be beautiful, successful and popular. I'm all for size acceptance and Mr. Simmons would be doing his audience justice if he turned off sales pitch and confirmed the fact that beauty is not a dress size.
According to history, thin has been in only since around the 1920's. If you read the ancient Hebrew scripture, Songs Of Songs from the Bible, the author of that book is describing his love which happens to be a heavyset young lady.
About stereo-types and self image.
I have two examples you might enjoy that are very positive; I know one young lady who is very full figured and dresses in a way that celebrates her body, not hiding it. She is very classy and a true lady. I also frequent a dance club where the most popular girl on the dance floor is a chubby blond who always has a line of guys waiting their turn while many of the thinner females just lounge around the bar waiting to be asked. My best female friend never wanted to go anywhere because she felt unattractive due to her size. (She's improved and now does go out) So I can understand where you're coming from.
Just my opinion but I think it depends on who you are inside. I'm currently writing a motivational book and I'll share this with you as I close my reply; "Don't worry about being popular because the people who don't like you will always find reasons not to like you, just as the people who love you will always have reasons to love you."
Party #2 (the original responder): I plead guilty to the charge of definitely being a goal oriented pragmatic realist. I've been accused and criticized more often of being an overly serious-minded studious bookworm who needs to get balance in her life than I've ever had anyone allude to my weight, which is virtually never.
I know my analytical mind is an issue and have tried, hopefully successfully, to lighten up in most areas of my life. But size acceptance is a hot button issue that I do devote a fair amount of online time to because so many are in pain over it.
I fully agree that people like Richard Simmons, however sincere, are no help for the vast majority. Most fat people are going to be fat long term given their genes, lifestyle and availability of food. The discussion for them needs to be how to live a productive, healthy and happy fat life - not how to lose weight ('cause it isn't going to happen).
As promised I've started a positive role model gaining story and will try to post it on Monday. Might as well put my big fat fingers where my big fat mouth is!
By the way, thanks for the response.
Party #1 (the original author): We seem to be at a consensus that we should say "You can be beautiful no matter what size you are." What we are NOT at a consensus about is this: Why is it important to be beautiful at all? Why is physical appearance so important? It seems to me like another stupid, social thing, be popular, be pretty.
Why? I don’t see why you HAVE to look good, or why your partner HAS to think you are beautiful. I mean, if my girlfriend said she appreciated me for my body and found it very sexy, I’d be flattered and consider it a plus, but I think people pay WAAAAYYY too much attention to looks in this country, both the typical people AND the FAs (or it would be thin A's, in my case.
Isn’t it kinda strange that there isn't a group for people who like thin guys? [Heh, actually there is , its called gay men.
) . Sorry for the digression there. ] I'm just trying to say that I'd want to be REALLY appreciated for what counts, my mind. Shouldn’t the mind and the heart count for 100 times more than the body?
Party #5 (Another well known author): Let's see how long we can make this thread...
I appreciate your sentiments (Name of original author), this country IS obsessed with physical beauty, but let's face it--we're genetically programmed to respond positively to things we feel are beautiful. This will never change. Whether it's artwork, or a sunset, or a member of the opposite sex, beauty will always be an important stimulus.
The important thing--and this is something that advertising, Hollywood and American popular culture in general don't show--is that beauty (to borrow an old tired cliche) is in the eye of the beholder. I feel my wife is physically beautiful, but at 250 pounds I know there are many men out there that wouldn't give her a second glance. More than that, however, it's her complete package--her intelligence, her personality, her charm--that really lights my fire. I think it's that way with most people and truly believe there is someone out there for everyone (which is what nature intended).
The real evil of our beauty-obsessed popular culture is that it skews people away from their natural preferences. I've always been attracted to voluptuous women and even though I knew my wife was perfect for me, there were times when we were dating that the brainwashed part of me wanted to give her up for someone more "beautiful." Thankfully, I was able to overcome the stigma that popular culture tried to instill in me, but I know many people don't...that's why we have so many people in miserable relationships in this day and age.
Party #2 (The original responder) You are so right on (Name of Poster #5 - omitted), I believe God created physical external preferences in His creatures so that we would have initial relationships, form couples and reproduce. Its what you have to have if you take away instinct and rutting seasons, then replace them with free moral agency and creativity. So, sorry (name of Poster #5-omitted) Jared, blame Him for the basic mechanism. Internal beauty is all fine and good, but the physical is there for a reason and it is not going anywhere.
I agree with you that our society takes physical attraction to extremes and causes many men (and women as well) to suppress natural preferences. What's worse, for many it also damages their ability to love themselves and accept love from others. The false "I'm fat therefore I'm ugly, bad and less-than" syndrome is everywhere. That's why I don't like certain kinds of stories -- they play into this lie.
There's nothing wrong, unattractive or dangerous about being 250 pounds. I'm not that far from there myself and have several healthy relatives over that level. Today we're getting resources and support that 30 years ago didn't exist. I think times are changing but there is a long way yet to go.
The discussion is on the CWWF forum from 2005 and is about to scroll off into oblivion. Four of the five parties involved are what I would consider as realistic authors whose work is included in the Dimensions library. Their names are masked here to focus on content:
------------
Party 1 (the author of two posted stories): I'm glad you liked (the earlier story name) by the way. People usually like that one a lot. It was kind of hard to write because the main character has a personality quite different than mine. Any suggestions on how to make this one, (current story name) better?
Party 2 (commenting on a posted story): This already excellent story would, in my belief, be much improved if the characters came to realize that, in addition to seeing inner beauty, large size and outward beauty are also compatible. Its how you dress, how you carry yourself, and the persona that you project that makes the difference. Coming to love some one with inner beauty "in spite of" their outer weight is not good enough in my book.
Party 1 (the author): How about loving someone for inner beauty and genuinely not caring what they look like on the outside? That way, you are not loving them "in spite" of anything, you really don't care what they look like?
I think ultimately this is better than loving them for being big, because if everyone did that, we'd have this same epidemic in the country of making women feel bad about their looks, except this time naturally thin women would feel awful. Its best if we, as a nation, can come together and try to forget about appearance mattering. Or, at best, we can say it matters so little, and inner beauty outweighs it (no pun intended) by a long shot.
Party 2 (original responder) Philosophically I see where you're coming from. But women have a need, perhaps more than men, to be seen as physically attractive.
There is even reason to believe that low self-esteem in obese women is more important than the obesity itself in causing so-called obesity related health problems. Here is a quote from a study at the University of California at Davis on point:
"Behavior change and self-acceptance trump dieting hands-down when it comes to achieving long-term health improvements in obese women, according to a two-year study by nutrition researchers at the University of California, Davis.
"The findings suggest that significant improvements in overall health can be made, regardless of weight loss, when women learn to recognize and follow internal hunger cues and begin feeling better about their size and shape. Results of the study will appear in the June issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association."
You can read the entire article at
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=25384
Its fine and good that a guy can look beyond an imperfection, but even nicer in the case of one's weight that it not be regarded as an imperfection to begin with! Size is simply in a different class than a zit, scar, or a gray hair!
Party #3 (an author from France): First I like you surname, it means Magic in my native tongue
Secondly, I do not know you and my opinion is based only from reading you messages.
I think that you are a woman ( a real one!!! ). I think that your opinions are very good. It is your opinion!
I respect you ideas and remarks because it is you and it is ok to tell what you think. As I told you are a real woman.
But please, could you sometime give me your opinion about this: "have you one time had the idea of making one person put on pounds to show him or her what it is to be fat".
-------
I had an idea one day. There is in France some TV Shows "we have exchanged our lives etc..."
I have an idea for a new TV show:
We may have to do a fat suit. A "second skin" adding 150 pounds on one thin person. This person will have to put on this second skin all a week on him or her to do all activities work etc and we will have a gig TV show to get the opinion of the person at the end of the week.
Good for respect no???
Take care
Party #2 (original responder): Your idea is a good one. This has actually been done by investigative reporters here in the United States. They usually go into a bar setting, retail store, restaurant etc using hidden cameras and microphones -- once in a fat suit, another time dressed 'normally.'
Invariably the "fat suit" person isn't treated as nicely. Few guys hit on her, clerks in the stores don't respond as quickly, service in the restaurant is poorer. This 'proves society's bias towards fat people.’
Or does it?
I think it shows what can happen to fat people - but doesn't have to if we don't play the game and accept it. I've not experienced this kind of rejection; I think its because I don't court it.
We deserve to be treated equally with others, fat or not, but too often we accept second class status as though we deserve it. This is wrong - and doesn't happen if we don't accept it.
I've been fat all my life but have always been a leader. I have never wanted for dates because I've befriended too many guys. I am not shy about talking to a store manager or asking for a restaurant owner's phone number. People get the message very quickly.
Groups and individuals I believe are discriminated against because they allow themselves to be. We as fat people will get respect when collectively we expect and demand it. Some of us are already there.
As for deliberately fattening someone up, it might be interesting but its not been my main thing. Still, if I ever cared about a guy smaller than me that could change.
Party #4 (A well known WG story writer) About your last sentence, I have a comment. You wrote, "Still, if I ever cared about a guy smaller than me that could change." I take it you're not attracted to slender men? After your essay on size prejudice wouldn't that then include you?
Party #2 (the original responder): You read too much into what is neither there or intended. I have a wonderful guy right now who happens to be bigger than me. I'm not in the market for anyone else of any size. Hopefully this will be the case for many years. But I recognize that tragedy could intervene and after that point who knows what might happen? That's all I was saying.
I think perhaps I need to clarify where I am coming from. I have seen lives ruined over weight issues. This includes those who have limited themselves because of a "less than" mentality over their size and those who have become ill due to diet-induced eating disorders.
One example: A classmate in high school, who had once been a close friend, died from the consequences of anorexia. She had once been slightly plump - but was hounded into dieting by her mom. She rejected the former friendship of myself and others because she didn't want to "slip back" into eating like us. She instead chose to pursue a popularity that never came her way. She went down to under 90 pounds but still saw herself as "fat."
Positive self image isn't the entire key to being both fat, healthy and happy. Exercise, avoiding certain foods, and including certain others are all part of the mix. But eliminating the stereotypical negative self image is part of the formula, which is why I prefer stories that reflect what can be instead of the dark side.
My guy is, from all I can tell, a hardwired FA, although he's never tried to get me to gain anything and is not the crusader that I am. He thinks both the groups I mentioned above aren't going to change so why bother. But he shares the FA opinion of the futility of diets and has dated other bigger girls much more than those of smaller size. I doubt if he would appreciate revenge stories either.
Why, given all the crap we have to put up with from the diet industry and elsewhere, should we be shooting our own? That's my dilemma. I don't mean to offend anyone as I try to answer that question.
We should be helping the wounded heal and getting the hidden FA's to come out of the closet and join the fray!
Party #4 (the well known WG story author) Hey (name deleted), your latest post has a lot of information and I'll try not to be too verbose or insensitive as I respond. Playing armchair psychologist you seem to a realist which can account for your lack of enthusiasm towards many of the stories posted here.
You have to remember the audience that these stories are written for. As an author myself, I always consider what my readers enjoy and commit myself to trying to please my audience. I'm aware that people who don't enjoy this type of fiction will have a hard time accepting my stories, but that's a given. I'm not going to please everyone. I was dating one young lady who dropped me like a bad habit as soon as she read a few of my stories. However, I have other female friends who think my stories are excellent and that I realistically portray the feminine gender.
About weight issue's;
I have never been a fan of the diet industry. Not because I'm attracted to full figure females, but rather because the diet industry is actually a business that preys upon a person's vanity and (lack) of self esteem. I don't cotton to people like Richard Simmons who tells his audience that you need to have a certain appearance to be beautiful, successful and popular. I'm all for size acceptance and Mr. Simmons would be doing his audience justice if he turned off sales pitch and confirmed the fact that beauty is not a dress size.
According to history, thin has been in only since around the 1920's. If you read the ancient Hebrew scripture, Songs Of Songs from the Bible, the author of that book is describing his love which happens to be a heavyset young lady.
About stereo-types and self image.
I have two examples you might enjoy that are very positive; I know one young lady who is very full figured and dresses in a way that celebrates her body, not hiding it. She is very classy and a true lady. I also frequent a dance club where the most popular girl on the dance floor is a chubby blond who always has a line of guys waiting their turn while many of the thinner females just lounge around the bar waiting to be asked. My best female friend never wanted to go anywhere because she felt unattractive due to her size. (She's improved and now does go out) So I can understand where you're coming from.
Just my opinion but I think it depends on who you are inside. I'm currently writing a motivational book and I'll share this with you as I close my reply; "Don't worry about being popular because the people who don't like you will always find reasons not to like you, just as the people who love you will always have reasons to love you."
Party #2 (the original responder): I plead guilty to the charge of definitely being a goal oriented pragmatic realist. I've been accused and criticized more often of being an overly serious-minded studious bookworm who needs to get balance in her life than I've ever had anyone allude to my weight, which is virtually never.
I know my analytical mind is an issue and have tried, hopefully successfully, to lighten up in most areas of my life. But size acceptance is a hot button issue that I do devote a fair amount of online time to because so many are in pain over it.
I fully agree that people like Richard Simmons, however sincere, are no help for the vast majority. Most fat people are going to be fat long term given their genes, lifestyle and availability of food. The discussion for them needs to be how to live a productive, healthy and happy fat life - not how to lose weight ('cause it isn't going to happen).
As promised I've started a positive role model gaining story and will try to post it on Monday. Might as well put my big fat fingers where my big fat mouth is!
By the way, thanks for the response.
Party #1 (the original author): We seem to be at a consensus that we should say "You can be beautiful no matter what size you are." What we are NOT at a consensus about is this: Why is it important to be beautiful at all? Why is physical appearance so important? It seems to me like another stupid, social thing, be popular, be pretty.
Why? I don’t see why you HAVE to look good, or why your partner HAS to think you are beautiful. I mean, if my girlfriend said she appreciated me for my body and found it very sexy, I’d be flattered and consider it a plus, but I think people pay WAAAAYYY too much attention to looks in this country, both the typical people AND the FAs (or it would be thin A's, in my case.
Isn’t it kinda strange that there isn't a group for people who like thin guys? [Heh, actually there is , its called gay men.
) . Sorry for the digression there. ] I'm just trying to say that I'd want to be REALLY appreciated for what counts, my mind. Shouldn’t the mind and the heart count for 100 times more than the body?Party #5 (Another well known author): Let's see how long we can make this thread...
I appreciate your sentiments (Name of original author), this country IS obsessed with physical beauty, but let's face it--we're genetically programmed to respond positively to things we feel are beautiful. This will never change. Whether it's artwork, or a sunset, or a member of the opposite sex, beauty will always be an important stimulus.
The important thing--and this is something that advertising, Hollywood and American popular culture in general don't show--is that beauty (to borrow an old tired cliche) is in the eye of the beholder. I feel my wife is physically beautiful, but at 250 pounds I know there are many men out there that wouldn't give her a second glance. More than that, however, it's her complete package--her intelligence, her personality, her charm--that really lights my fire. I think it's that way with most people and truly believe there is someone out there for everyone (which is what nature intended).
The real evil of our beauty-obsessed popular culture is that it skews people away from their natural preferences. I've always been attracted to voluptuous women and even though I knew my wife was perfect for me, there were times when we were dating that the brainwashed part of me wanted to give her up for someone more "beautiful." Thankfully, I was able to overcome the stigma that popular culture tried to instill in me, but I know many people don't...that's why we have so many people in miserable relationships in this day and age.
Party #2 (The original responder) You are so right on (Name of Poster #5 - omitted), I believe God created physical external preferences in His creatures so that we would have initial relationships, form couples and reproduce. Its what you have to have if you take away instinct and rutting seasons, then replace them with free moral agency and creativity. So, sorry (name of Poster #5-omitted) Jared, blame Him for the basic mechanism. Internal beauty is all fine and good, but the physical is there for a reason and it is not going anywhere.
I agree with you that our society takes physical attraction to extremes and causes many men (and women as well) to suppress natural preferences. What's worse, for many it also damages their ability to love themselves and accept love from others. The false "I'm fat therefore I'm ugly, bad and less-than" syndrome is everywhere. That's why I don't like certain kinds of stories -- they play into this lie.
There's nothing wrong, unattractive or dangerous about being 250 pounds. I'm not that far from there myself and have several healthy relatives over that level. Today we're getting resources and support that 30 years ago didn't exist. I think times are changing but there is a long way yet to go.
