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Blackjack

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No one has to prove or justify why they feel the way they do.
No, they don't have to justify opinions... but they should justify claims. Stating that BHMs are always ganged up on isn't an opinion, it's making a claim that can be disproven, and it's up to the person who's making that claim to prove that there's any truth to it.

If BHMs and FFAs feel marginalized, then there ought to at least be some suggestions to help change that... suggestions that don't include an implied "but it'd be worthless 'cause people would just insult and attack anyways".
 

William

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I am not bookmarking the history of Fat Acceptance. Google "Fat Acceptance" and Fat Men" and you will see plenty of posts, articles and studies minimizing and marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men. Go to NAAFA and look at some of the older articles, there is a historical record of the experiences of Fat Men being marginalize, I am not sure if Dimensions has cleaned up some of its older articles that deal with Fat Men.

You are asking me to show instances of this activity when this has been the normal activity in Fat Acceptance almost from the beginning

Here are two studies I mentioned

Fat Men & Feminism
http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107

Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin ( I have not read the whole book)
http://rioiriri.blogspot.com/2008/03/hatred-becomes-violence.html

William

William-

Blackjacks right, you need to prove yourself. Post a link to somewhere you were attacked, or to one of the studies you mentioned, but for the love of God just put up some evidence.
 

Paquito

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I am not bookmarking the history of Fat Acceptance. Google "Fat Acceptance" and Fat Men" and you will see plenty of posts, articles and studies minimizing and marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men. Go to NAAFA and look at some of the older articles, there is a historical record of the experiences of Fat Men being marginalize, I am not sure if Dimensions has cleaned up some of its older articles that deal with Fat Men.

You are asking me to show instances of this activity when this has been the normal activity in Fat Acceptance almost from the beginning

Here are two studies I mentioned

Fat Men & Feminism
http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107

Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin ( I have not read the whole book)
http://rioiriri.blogspot.com/2008/03/hatred-becomes-violence.html

William
There we go, those are some good articles.
Gracias William
 

William

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I have been saying from the start that Fat Male experiences do not need to be disected and examined by peers before being accepted by the community.

My (any BHM or person) experiences can not be validated or devalued by comparison to any other group of people, those experiences are mind (our's).

William


Okay, then what are some ideas for changing things?
 

Blackjack

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Good start with those studies, however regarding this:

Google "Fat Acceptance" and Fat Men" and you will see plenty of posts, articles and studies minimizing and marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men. Go to NAAFA and look at some of the older articles, there is a historical record of the experiences of Fat Men being marginalize, I am not sure if Dimensions has cleaned up some of its older articles that deal with Fat Men.
I will repeat this:

Unless you can back up your arguments- and I mean YOU backing them up, not telling US to do YOUR research- then you're not going to be taken at all seriously.
 

William

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Fascinita

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No one has to prove or justify why they feel the way they do. The fact is many members of this board feel marginalized, and it's a real issue. Chimpi attempted to bring this up in good faith, and it's becoming nothing more than a bashing thread.
Missa, no one's being asked to justify feelings. People are flinging accusations of secret societies around like they're marshmallows. People keep bringing up a supposed cabal of BBWs on Dimensions. These are not feelings, but accusations. And as they can potentially be hurtful and destructive in their own right, I would like these accusations and innuendo to either be backed up or go away.

Feelings of exclusion are one thing, and I think most of us here would be willing to help out in any way we were able. But it's quite another thing to have a few people continue to insist that there is an issue of marginalization, and when they are asked to explain what they mean, simply respond by throwing accusations at people that they are too insensitive to "get" the self-evident issues and that they themselves are part of the problem. I mean, when someone comes to you asking you to say more about a problem that you have, do you snap at them and tell them to go figure it out themselves, or do you provide details?
 

William

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Well it is obvious that you have done very little reading of Fat Acceptance literature, show me a Fat Acceptance Publication that includes Fat Men as anything more than men that have minimal Fat Issues.

A statement like "this is not to say that Fat Men do not experience..............." does not count

William

Good start with those studies, however regarding this:



I will repeat this:
 

William

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Well maybe everyone should go back and add links for everything that they have ever posted on Dimensions?

William



Missa, no one's being asked to justify feelings. People are flinging accusations of secret societies around like they're marshmallows. People keep bringing up a supposed cabal of BBWs on Dimensions. These are not feelings, but accusations. And as they can potentially be hurtful and destructive in their own right, I would like these accusations and innuendo to either be backed up or go away.

Feelings of exclusion are one thing, and I think most of us here would be willing to help out in any way we were able. But it's quite another thing to have a few people continue to insist that there is an issue of marginalization, and when they are asked to explain what they mean, simply respond by throwing accusations at people that they are too insensitive to "get" the self-evident issues and that they themselves are part of the problem. I mean, when someone comes to you asking you to say more about a problem that you have, do you snap at them and tell them to go figure it out themselves, or do you provide details?
 

Blackjack

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Well it is obvious that you have done very little reading of Fat Acceptance literature, show me a Fat Acceptance Publication that includes Fat Men as anything more than men that have minimal Fat Issues.

A statement like "this is not to say that Fat Men do not experience..............." does not count

William
You're the one making the claim. All I'm doing is asking that you prove it. Instead of using ad hominems and telling us to do your research for you, it would probably be better to back up your statements yourself.
 

ripley

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I have been saying from the start that Fat Male experiences do not need to be disected and examined by peers before being accepted by the community.

My (any BHM or person) experiences can not be validated or devalued by comparison to any other group of people, those experiences are mind (our's).

William
No, they don't. But if you're talking about a message board like this one, everyone gets dissected.

If they can't be devalued by comparisons, why are you so against them?
 

William

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Hi Ripley

I disagree if a BBW shares that she had a negative episode at work, her experience is not immediately placed on a mental graph comparing it and measuring it against BHM or any other experience. I have seen very few experiences of BHM allowed to exist without a "indexing" in regards to BBW experiences, this happens at Dimensions and else where in Fat Acceptance.

William

No, they don't. But if you're talking about a message board like this one, everyone gets dissected.

If they can't be devalued by comparisons, why are you so against them?
 

out.of.habit

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Hi Ripley

I disagree if a BBW shares that she had a negative episode at work, her experience is not immediately placed on a mental graph comparing it and measuring it against BHM or any other experience. I have seen very few experiences of BHM allowed to exist without a "indexing" in regards to BBW experiences, this happens at Dimensions and else where in Fat Acceptance.

William
Can you show us a recent example of this? I haven't run into this issue at all. I don't question how much this is upsetting you, but I would like to have a solid understanding of what you're referring to.
 

Tooz

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Can you show us a recent example of this? I haven't run into this issue at all. I don't question how much this is upsetting you, but I would like to have a solid understanding of what you're referring to.
I'm totally confused, as well. Any time he is asked to give examples or discuss this, he just says "I refuse to devalue the etc etc etc" or whatever...
 

RobitusinZ

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Well it is obvious that you have done very little reading of Fat Acceptance literature, show me a Fat Acceptance Publication that includes Fat Men as anything more than men that have minimal Fat Issues.
Not for nothing, but considering that everything in this world runs on money and/or the potential to make such, wouldn't just about any product on any market cater to the majority demographic for that product?

You know who cares about Fat Acceptance? Women.

That's why Lane Bryant exists in all its glory, and guys get the hole-in-the-wall, barely standing "Big & Tall" stores, or the "Fat Kid" section at Sears (I think they called it "Husky" when I was a kid...have they dropped the euphemism yet?).

I think you're just being a little too naive about this whole situation. Idealism is great, but sometimes you just gotta put it aside and accept the reality of the world.

How many BBWs are on this site? How many BHMs? How much of the traffic that gets generated through the "paysite" board can be attributed to FFAs looking for fat dude porn?

Get it yet?
 

William

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Hi

I disagree most of the early Fat Acceptance writings that I have seen spoke of Fat Women, Fat Men and All Fat People needing Fat Acceptance. By the time that acronyms like BBW were invented all that had changed. The writings that I speak of was written by radical feminists, yet they included gender and age inclusion.

I would say that we will never see what Fat Acceptance was meant to be.

William


Not for nothing, but considering that everything in this world runs on money and/or the potential to make such, wouldn't just about any product on any market cater to the majority demographic for that product?

You know who cares about Fat Acceptance? Women.

That's why Lane Bryant exists in all its glory, and guys get the hole-in-the-wall, barely standing "Big & Tall" stores, or the "Fat Kid" section at Sears (I think they called it "Husky" when I was a kid...have they dropped the euphemism yet?).

I think you're just being a little too naive about this whole situation. Idealism is great, but sometimes you just gotta put it aside and accept the reality of the world.

How many BBWs are on this site? How many BHMs? How much of the traffic that gets generated through the "paysite" board can be attributed to FFAs looking for fat dude porn?

Get it yet?
 

RobitusinZ

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Karl Marx rolls around in his grave whenever he hears the word "Marxism", and/or "communism" and the way those terms have been horribly perverted and misused.

Like communism, socialism, or any other "ism" it seems like a great idea to a few people, but the fact is that you're not going to change the status quo. "Fat Acceptance" already exists...fat people aren't shackled and made to pick cotton, nor are they forced to stay home and wear burkas, nor are they deprived the right to vote.

I think we should take the fact that we're lucky enough to remain functioning members of society and run. I'm not gonna get pissy cuz someone happens to not like me. If instead of being fat, I had a big nose, or huge ears, or something that made me equally unattractive or even moreso, I wouldn't go all "boohoo" about it and make a "big nosed, big eared freaks acceptance" campaign.

Look, I probably come from a different background here than most. My last name is Gonzalez, I'm a native Spanish-speaker, and if you spoke to me, you'd catch an accent even though I'm perfectly fluent in English. I was the broke kid who persevered and "made it". I'm not an NBA player...I'm just a software engineer. In my short professional career, I've had to put up with so much SHIT from people who thought I was some sort of Affirmative Action quota fill-in that when I see other Hispanics doing it, I feel like pissing on their faces and vomiting on their graves (and believe me, living in Miami, FL, you see PLENTY of these Affirmative Action rejects). Can you imagine how I feel now, being a fat guy who found a place where other fat people can hang out and chat, and see this same kind of pity-party "Fat Acceptance" bullshit getting thrown about?

You want "Fat Acceptance"? Go be a productive member of society.

The hard-working blue and white collar people who go to work everyday despite their flaws and their difficulties are the ones who FORCE "acceptance". I certainly don't need anyone to "accept" me.

Hi

I disagree most of the early Fat Acceptance writings that I have seen spoke of Fat Women, Fat Men and All Fat People needing Fat Acceptance. By the time that acronyms like BBW were invented all that had changed. The writings that I speak of was written by radical feminists, yet they included gender and age inclusion.

I would say that we will never see what Fat Acceptance was meant to be.

William
 

olwen

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Hi Olwen

I can said that Fat Male views are marginalized in Fat Acceptance from my own experiences on boards at NAAFA, FATSO, Big Fat Blog and many others. The main theme on these boards was "how little Fat Men need Fat Acceptance", I will admit that thinking on these boards have and are improving.

Too many times my experiences have been measured against BBW examples even though my issues flow from a totally different mindset and experience.

You have done this yourself on several threads recently

I have had BBWs state that the the tolerance of Fat is much higher for Men as if as a Fat Men this had any relevance to my experiences or that Fat Women suffer more abuse, like that has any relevance to what I have experienced. Funny that a recent report that Fat Men experience more violence because of their Fat was some how passed over by the FA Commmunity. Another recent study that showed that Men have experienced Fat Bias far earlier than Feminism and Fat Acceptance will acknowledge has been passed over while in the same period many other studies were placed in the forefront of Fat Acceptance.

So I say, yes Fat Men are still marginalized in Fat Acceptance.

William
First, lets remember the context of the thread that shall not be named. Whatever comparisons I brought up were relevant to the discussion. You talk as if none of us should be having discussions about anything related to fat and gender.

So you're saying that you are basing your POV on your experiences alone But here you are looking for other experiences. Sounds to me like you do want to have experiences to compare to your own, otherwise, why look?

I am not bookmarking the history of Fat Acceptance. Google "Fat Acceptance" and Fat Men" and you will see plenty of posts, articles and studies minimizing and marginalizing the experiences of Fat Men. Go to NAAFA and look at some of the older articles, there is a historical record of the experiences of Fat Men being marginalize, I am not sure if Dimensions has cleaned up some of its older articles that deal with Fat Men.

You are asking me to show instances of this activity when this has been the normal activity in Fat Acceptance almost from the beginning

Here are two studies I mentioned

Fat Men & Feminism
http://bod.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/107

Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin ( I have not read the whole book)
http://rioiriri.blogspot.com/2008/03/hatred-becomes-violence.html

William
Finally an example of something. Great. Now as to the first link. I'm reminding you that I started a thread on the BHM board about definitions of masculinity and how it relates to fat men, http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40743&highlight=masculine
as well as one for femininity and how it relates to fat women. There was lots of input on the femininity thread, but not as much on the masculinity thread even tho it was on the board where I'd expect many bhms to give their input. These threads are about the very thing you're saying isn't being addressed. You won't find what you are looking for if you don't begin to look.

Well it is obvious that you have done very little reading of Fat Acceptance literature, show me a Fat Acceptance Publication that includes Fat Men as anything more than men that have minimal Fat Issues.

A statement like "this is not to say that Fat Men do not experience..............." does not count

William
What exactly do you mean by "minimal fat issues?" Seriously? I don't know what you consider a minimal fat issue. And if I don't, I'm sure there are others reading this thread who don't know either. And I should hope that you don't think asking you to clarify this is asking too much either.

....see here's the thing that's frustrating me about this whole topic: What's the point of saying this? "A statement like 'this is not to say that Fat Men do not experience...............' does not count" Do you want people to acknowledge what you go thru as a fat man or not? I'm getting mixed messages from a lot of your posts. You say you want to be heard, but then you turn around, get angry and obsfuscate when we ask you to speak. You can't have it both ways.

I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth it to try to have this discussion with you. I don't think you want anyone to actually talk to you about this. I think you just want to let off steam. Problem is, you're probably alienating the very people who'd be more than willing to hear you out.

Hi

I disagree most of the early Fat Acceptance writings that I have seen spoke of Fat Women, Fat Men and All Fat People needing Fat Acceptance. By the time that acronyms like BBW were invented all that had changed. The writings that I speak of was written by radical feminists, yet they included gender and age inclusion.

I would say that we will never see what Fat Acceptance was meant to be.

William
...I'm not so sure I want to know what you think fat acceptance is meant to be given the way you express yourself. You're not helping your cause.

You feel separated. That's unfortunate, but ask yourself how much of that separation is self-imposed. Some of us have been more than willing to hear you out, and help you tear down some walls, but you're not breaking your share of bricks.
 
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