Separation Within Dimensions

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PolarKat

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I don't care about internet grammar, but the ghost of William Strunk, who lives in my hat, is all up in arms about this. And no foolin' that guy is a beast when he's angry.

Yeah, it seems as though it just leads to more bad blood between each side, but eventually there has to be some understanding. We're smart people; eventually we'll figure out what the other is saying.

If not, I give up on humanity entirely. :p
Just curious... not implying anything negative.. the other one was watching bugs or something.. what's your angle?
 

JoyJoy

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"I'm 'en-ery the eighth I am
'en-ery the eighth I am, I am"


Ev-ry body SING!
 

Waxwing

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Just curious... not implying anything negative.. the other one was watching bugs or something.. what's your angle?
I don't have an angle. Playing fast and loose with grammatical rules raises my fake dander, and venting it is fun.

As to the fighting, I do think that both sides have valid points, but that it's largely been framed as:

"My feelings are hurt."
"Why?"
"My feelings are hurt!"

cute_obese_girl just knocked it out of the park with that last post, though. Marginalization isn't wholly imagined, but it feeds on itself when one group hides away in the shadows without speaking up. The problem is that if that "speaking up" is unavoidably a questioning of the status quo, it takes a lot of rational argument and evidence to make your position clear.
 

ripley

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I have found that in situations like this a little proactive behavior goes a long way, maybe we could even find a Win-Win conclusion?

William
I'm curious as to what you would see as a win-win conclusion? What would you like the results to be from this?

You keep repeating yourself, and we hear you. Is that what you want, for people to just acknowledge that they hear what you're saying?

I think that none of us will say "but fat men don't have it as bad" ever again, so that's a win, no?
 

Donna

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I am of the belief there is no win-win, or even a win-lose, to this conundrum we keep visiting repeatedly. It's too subjective, IMHO. I just hope we're learning from it, though. I know I am learning some things.

For example, when I first came to Dimensions, the BHM/FFA board mostly contained pictures threads and hook up threads. I was/am happily hooked up with my own BHM, so I never really saw a reason to go there. With all the hooplah lately, I decided to read more posts on the BHM board and was pleasantly surprised to see some other topics. YMMV, though.
 

Jack Skellington

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There are many reasons that could contribute to fewer men participating. I do not agree it is because men are marginalized by the fat women of the movement, which is what you are implying no matter how you put it. One group cannot be marginalized, without someone doing it to them. Therefore when you equate fewer men participating in fat acceptance with "marginalization" you are saying that women are marginalizing them. That is why people are so upset with you. They are not attacking you because you are a BHM in the movement.
This very,very good.
 

PolarKat

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cute_obese_girl just knocked it out of the park with that last post, though. Marginalization isn't wholly imagined, but it feeds on itself when one group hides away in the shadows without speaking up. The problem is that if that "speaking up" is unavoidably a questioning of the status quo, it takes a lot of rational argument and evidence to make your position clear.
Not quite a knock out of the park, but a good logical assumption, and it's right on many levels.. I didn't want to post in this thread and only stay in the other but.. I know william isn't clear, but at the same time the others are just resorting to argument fallacies and such to defend something that's not even an attack etc.. etc.. here we go..

It's obvious that alot of the people on the "other side" haven't actually read much of the lit. out there produced by the SA movement, by its "esteemed" members. With the exception of 2-3 published books/lit. I've seen to date, the complete story of BHM is always summerized as "Not having it as hard as BBW", and that's about it. Up until a point, literature produced by NAAFA and similar organizations would almost be devoid of BHM reference, it's now shifted to gender neutral, but any studies that are sill comming out are focused to the BBW experience, with the usual disclaimer of "BHM's don't have it as hard".
This year is the first time in the entire history of the NAAFA where a BHM specific item has appeared on the calendar for the conference. Yes the BHM plight is the same as that of the thin FA, and the janitor watching in the corner..
This is all fine/dandy but the reality isn't "BHM's don't have it as hard", the reality has nothing to do with that statement at all. The BHM experience is different from the BBW, just as societal roles, how our brains are wired etc.. make it different. To summerize what BHM experience as just a lesser exent of what BBW go through is a lie, and about as scientfically valid as voodoo.

SA was created from Feminism, so it's rank and elite are filled with femenists, the focus of SA has been from a womens perspective, and then they just add "BHM's don't have it as hard", and sent it to publish, or organize events around it.. It's a simple as that.
I attribute some of it to not having a clue, some of it to those with fringe agendas etc.. and the end result has been an alienation of fat males

If you want to continue this, then please come to the other thread...
 

PolarKat

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And why I didn't want to post here, instant argument fallacies.. stoop to your level.. why not..
Honestly do you people actually read what people write or you get out of bed, thinking "how can I misinterpret someone so I can be be a better asswipe today"
You're just pathetic people, there's no point in talking to you, becuase you're not here to listen, one is here just to score some ass, gettin' more jacko boy fatties gonna play with the stick now "you 'teh manz!!!"

and the other I'm still not sure why.. examinig ants as well.. also a thing for fat chicks??
 

Fascinita

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SA was created from Feminism, so it's rank and elite are filled with femenists, the focus of SA has been from a womens perspective, and then they just add "BHM's don't have it as hard", and sent it to publish, or organize events around it.. It's a simple as that.
I attribute some of it to not having a clue, some of it to those with fringe agendas etc.. and the end result has been an alienation of fat males

If you want to continue this, then please come to the other thread...
Hey, if I show you a picture of Gloria Steinem, do you melt into a puddle of water?



Heh... Just kidding, Officer Farva. But what have feminists ever done to you?
 

William

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I keep repeating myself because there is a wall here that seems to spring up when ever the keywords like "BHM telling their own story" are spotted.

It would help if the people that disagree with us would stop acting as if the viewpoints that we bring up are something new to Fat Acceptance and need proving. Fat Men have always commented on how their life histories have been hijacked by Fat Acceptance and that includes all these news articles that use Fat Acceptance sources.

The attack tactics used here only scrambles the communication and sets the process backward. A win-win outcome can only come from communication and a large part of the participates here rather attack others or post Campy messages all over the boards to high-light their power in numbers.

William


I'm curious as to what you would see as a win-win conclusion? What would you like the results to be from this?

You keep repeating yourself, and we hear you. Is that what you want, for people to just acknowledge that they hear what you're saying?

I think that none of us will say "but fat men don't have it as bad" ever again, so that's a win, no?
 

Waxwing

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And why I didn't want to post here, instant argument fallacies.. stoop to your level.. why not..
Honestly do you people actually read what people write or you get out of bed, thinking "how can I misinterpret someone so I can be be a better asswipe today"
You're just pathetic people, there's no point in talking to you, becuase you're not here to listen, one is here just to score some ass, gettin' more jacko boy fatties gonna play with the stick now "you 'teh manz!!!"

and the other I'm still not sure why.. examinig ants as well.. also a thing for fat chicks??
Let's make out.
 

PolarKat

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Hey, if I show you a picture of Gloria Steinem, do you melt into a puddle of water?



Heh... Just kidding, Officer Farva. But what have feminists ever done to you?
If I give you a brain that works properly would you be able to read what's there and not imagine what you think is there?
 

ripley

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I keep repeating myself because there is a wall here that seems to spring up when ever the keywords like "BHM telling their own story" are spotted.

It would help if the people that disagree with us would stop acting as if the viewpoints that we bring up are something new to Fat Acceptance and need proving. Fat Men have always commented on how their life histories have been hijacked by Fat Acceptance and that includes all these news articles that use Fat Acceptance sources.

The attack tactics used here only scrambles the communication and sets the process backward. A win-win outcome can only come from communication and a large part of the participates here rather attack others or post Campy messages all over the boards to high-light their power in numbers.

William
I think that no one that has read these threads will do this any more. So you've won, no? No reason to keep repeating yourself, you have done your job.

That'll do, pig, that'll do.*



*a reference from the movie Babe, about an actual pig, not a slander against William or any other fat person.
 

Waxwing

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If I give you a brain that works properly would you be able to read what's there and not imagine what you think is there?
Hey now (hey now, don't dreeeeeam it's over).

You can't just saunter in, say something vaguely demeaning about "feminists" and then expect some sort of ticker-tape parade. Unless by "ticker-tape" you mean "razor blades and fire".

Your point was that the SA movement was largely begun by women and might have had less representation of BHMs than it should have. And who knows, that may be true. We can talk about that. But see how that has nothing to do with "feminists"? That was just inflammatory and bad. Like rheumatism.

Jeez.
 

William

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I love the ideas of the early Feminists in Fat Acceptance.

It was not until writers like Susie Orbach, Marcia Millman, Kim Chernin, Marilyn Lawrence, Carole Spitzack , Naomi Wol, Morag MacSween and Susan Bordo came on the scene that fat men were written out of Fat Acceptance.

The Radical Feminist Therapy Collective and and the Fat Women's Problem-Solving Group from the early 70s most often used the phrase Fat People when dealing with Fat Issues unless the issue was strictly gender related.

William


Hey, if I show you a picture of Gloria Steinem, do you melt into a puddle of water?



Heh... Just kidding, Officer Farva.
 

Jack Skellington

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If I give you a brain that works properly would you be able to read what's there and not imagine what you think is there?
You mean other than the obvious male martyrdom? Give the people here some credit. My brain may not work properly but the tone and intent of your post was pretty obvious. Those evil Feminists started the SA movement so of course they are keeping the men in it down.
 

Donna

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And why I didn't want to post here, instant argument fallacies.. stoop to your level.. why not..
Honestly do you people actually read what people write or you get out of bed, thinking "how can I misinterpret someone so I can be be a better asswipe today"
You're just pathetic people, there's no point in talking to you, becuase you're not here to listen, one is here just to score some ass, gettin' more jacko boy fatties gonna play with the stick now "you 'teh manz!!!"

and the other I'm still not sure why.. examinig ants as well.. also a thing for fat chicks??
Dude, you just did exactly what you were pissing and moaning about. Do two wrongs make a right?

I want to respond to something you said in your previous post, though:

SA was created from Feminism, so it's rank and elite are filled with femenists, the focus of SA has been from a womens perspective, and then they just add "BHM's don't have it as hard", and sent it to publish, or organize events around it.. It's a simple as that.
I attribute some of it to not having a clue, some of it to those with fringe agendas etc.. and the end result has been an alienation of fat males
More than once in this discussion, you have mentioned the connection to feminism and the roots of SA stemming from feminism. When you speak of the feminist movement, your tone comes across demeaning and somewhat misogynistic. Is that your intent? Is it possible the whole "BHMs don't have it as hard" idea is a SA-specific version of the larger idea that men in general often don't have it as hard.

I hate to resort to broad generalizations, but in the interest of trying to make a point, I am going to. Men and women are different. Apples and oranges. BHM and BBW are different, with different issues. Cantelope and honeydew.
 

PolarKat

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Hey now (hey now, don't dreeeeeam it's over).

You can't just saunter in, say something vaguely demeaning about "feminists" and then expect some sort of ticker-tape parade. Unless by "ticker-tape" you mean "razor blades and fire".

Your point was that the SA movement was largely begun by women and might have had less representation of BHMs than it should have. And who knows, that may be true. We can talk about that. But see how that has nothing to do with "feminists"? That was just inflammatory and bad. Like rheumatism.

Jeez.
Let's see easier to ask someone to clarify a point that you might not be understanding since the person is summarizing and asking you to follow up in another thread, or bring out the torches.. hmmmm... whatever.. you've shown your character quite well..
 
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